This should make everyone stop and think

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:04 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

At a siblings wedding (Yes nice but no, not balabatish) I over heard some deprecating comments from some guests about the simplicity.
Thank G-d my parents didn't hear, but sorry, the possible pain and humIliation is real.
And embarrassing someone is also considered like shedding blood.
Maybe these are things that should be focused on, rather than preaching to poor people about not being jealous. There's jealousy and there's the desire not to stand out and be humiliated.

I'm sorry you had to hear those hurtful comments, I would definitely be livid. Like, you don't like what you see? You are very welcome to leave any time. If you have "standards" such as you won't go to simple weddings, I don't fancy being acquainted with you.

On the other hand, when one does make a simple wedding you have to know how to do it. If your'e constantly apologising as to the lack of ... smorgasbord... or you name it, you start to give the impression like you owe people something.

Others can see through you. If you give across this confidant expression, like you don't care for peer pressure, you are perfectly happy with this standard, others will admire your attitude.

I know because one of my siblings got married to a more simple family, much less than ours. They have such confidence- they couldn't care what others think! We all loved that.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:09 pm

Nobody was apologetic.
This is just the reality.
But again, even if we had been apologetic that is once again placing the burden and fault solely at the feet of the "poor" people. Why aren't "rich" people held accountable for any of these societal ills? Why is it only the problem of one group? If you believe areivim zeh lazeh, you know we ALL have to step up to the plate. It's a cop out to say it's just the problem of the poor, and, frankly insulting that you just assumed that about my family while giving a break to others who have never experienced making do with less.
ETA laying the fault that you assumed was our attitude. Not others attitudes. And you couldn't be more wrong.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:24 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Didn't mean to assume anything, just trying to point out what a show of confidence can do to people who look down at others.

You should know many of these rich people making fancy weddings don't show off on a daily basis, they go all out at the weddings of the children. And Iv'e also heard from some that they do it so they can indulge their guest, they enjoy seeing people have a good time at their simchas, listening to a band they may never hear elsewhere, tastey food...

I actually love these events, I have a jolly good time there.

Not saying they only do it for the guest obviously.

honey36

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:24 pm

I think the reason rich people aren't held accountable for other people being jealous of them is because it's just a step away. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it just makes sense for everyone to try as best they can for being responsible for their own ruchniyus. If a rich person are only making a wedding to flaunt and make others jealous of course that's bad and they can work on that, but if that's just their standard of normal, why should they change?
I guess in general rich people have others things to work on, like flaunting it, generosity, any other area...maybe not as much jealousy but again, you never know. Money doesn't buy everything. I don't think rich are "off the hook" in these areas.
Poor ppl in general have to work more on jealousy, but not as much in generosity, being carefull abt flaunting etc. So as others said, both have valid struggles. That's just the way Hashem made the world. Everyone has their own tikkun

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:37 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Personally I have no respect for someone who will look down at a simple affair.
But it is a humiliating feeling to hear comments like that.
And it's not the responsibility of the poor person to act confident and smooth things out so the the rich person will be impressed and refrain from their own bad attitude.
Both have a responsibility.
The poor person to be satisfied with what he has. The rich person to be be respectful and careful not to make the poor person feel less than.
But for some reason on any discussions here, people tend to tear into the poor person and lay everything at his/her feet, that's all about his/her not having a good enough attitude. Never any expectations of the rich people just tons of preaching about nor judging them and that they probably have hidden issues. Which may well be true but that doesn't absolve them of their own responsibility as to have the proper attitude.
And I know you probably can't understand it, but your post that I've quoted is a rather patronizing one. For a variety of reasons. Telling me "I should know" (obviously I have no clue about how the privileged other half lives) , also that you "actually love" these events and have a jolly good time there. Are you talking about the lavish ones or the plain ones like you assume I have? You sound very much like the tone deaf celebrities taking a lot of flak now for posting ridiculous comments about self isolating in their huge mansions.

southernbubby

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:45 pm

Of course, there are numerous rabbonim pointing out our moral and spiritual failings and I am sure that they can find even more reasons to blame what's currently happening on the wrongdoings of the frum community but what we really need is Moshiach.
From a purely physical standpoint, a vaccine may be our ticket out of this mess so demanding that rabbonim stand up for medical choice may not be in anyone's best interest at this point, even if pregnant teachers should have been willing to catch measles.
People are likewise free to avoid attending weddings that are extravagant and rabbonim can make takanas for their communities.
I prefer positive messages about how we can bring Moshiach.
Otherwise, let's not stop at failure to support anti-vaxers, big weddings, smart phones, long wigs lashon hara, talking in shul, tznius, or anything else that we can blame on frum people.

amother

Ecru

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really? Ever hear of midda Kineged midda?

Meant to quote the first part of your post. I know two couples personally that are/ were quite miserable. One kallah told me she truly regrets it and it would have made sense to wait. Not for fancy, but for normal! Privacy and places to go air out with her new husband, him having shul and a schedule. She had a chupas nidda and like many others is living in her parents house.

Do you know these ppl or are you romanticizing things you see in the news?

honey36

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:50 pm

How would you feel if guest came to a modest wedding (no shmorg, fake flowers, one man band) and felt very embarrassed because all they can afford for their weddings is 50 ppl In the backyard served shnitzel and rice, no flowers etc. Is the person who made this modest wedding now responsible for this even "poorer" persons feelings?

I think the reason more ppl are "protecting" the rich is because also more ppl are "attacking" them. They wouldnt need defense if they didn't have plaintiffs.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:52 pm

I don't think we can point to any specific reason why this is happening.
I thought this thread was more about takeaways we can look for, to make personal improvements.
My posts are just because I'm tired of the poor people blaming and shaming that always seems to happen when the topic if extravagant life styles comes up. Can't we just all agree we need to step up in our own way and take responsibility for what we have control over? It's everyone who needs to do this it's not an us vs them.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 1:55 pm

honey36 wrote:

Please. You can't compare. No, someone will feel way more inadequate about an over the top simcha than a plain basic one. If anything it will make the truly impoverished person feel better to see someone making do with less than a "standard" expected one. And will probably strengthen him to do the same.
And your point here actually perpetuates the rich person defense and continues blaming the middle class/slightly less poor. So tone deaf. Reread your own post if you don't get what I'm saying.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:02 pm

Just for the record, my husband always said since forever that we are doing 10 people wedding for the kids. I always said impossible but this situation has proven me wrong...not that ill allow his idea of a wedding to happen.

But yes, I repeat that I have a very good time at the fancy weddings, I love the flowers, music and food I wouldn't get elsewhere. I very much enjoy the simple ones too, I love how heimishe they can feel.

I never said its ok for the richies to look down at the simple affairs. Don't like it? go home. That's my attitude.

honey36

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:11 pm

Quote:

And your point here actually perpetuates the rich person defense and continues blaming the middle class/slightly less poor. So tone deaf. Reread your own post if you don't get what I'm saying

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make.

So you don't think it's at all possible that a modest wedding can make a person who can't even afford "modest" feel bad? My point with that example was that if don't have to b responsible for other people's feelings when I make a modest wedding according to my standards why should a rich person be responsible about others feelings when making a "modest" wedding According to their standards

amother

Violet

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:26 pm

lilies wrote:

Want to point this out, though I may agree with the overarching theme..
Sometimes a 'terrible' Rebbe or teacher who makes a tiny salary is actually ruining your child. Sometimes, there are terrible consequences to the precious angels and some mothers and angels are so grateful for this little reprieve.

Yes, many rebbeim and teachers ruin children. This should be a separate issue than the issue of underpaying them. If you dont think so, thank hashm that none of your angels were destroyed by some of them.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:30 pm

honey36 wrote:

Quote:

And your point here actually perpetuates the rich person defense and continues blaming the middle class/slightly less poor. So tone deaf. Reread your own post if you don't get what I'm saying

No. No. No.
Re-read my post. In its entirety. Not just the one sentence you took out of context. Re-read my other posts, too. If you are being intellectually honest you will see the points I am making have nothing to do with yours. Nothing.

avrahamama

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 2:40 pm

So I think it's just a question of gluttony. HKBH doesn't want any of us even poor to be gluttons. And really most of what most of us do is or borders very closely on gluttony. We engorge on all sorts of gashmiut. And so yes extravagant simchas are gluttony even if you can afford it.

Because did you remember what the actual simcha is? To bring down the shechina? That's the simcha. That every time we have a chuppa or Brit or whatever we bring down the shechina. But that gets lost in all the gluttony.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Apr 13 2020, 4:37 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

I agree with this. I really am curious where the another exclaiming over the beauty of these covid weddings is getting her info from. I am in the wedding business. I personally worked with multiple kallahs and their mothers, sisters, grandmother's, etc. While I found it admirable thag most of them put on a good face, and tried to make the best of it, not one person was happy about their tiny basement wedding. Not even the poorest of my clients, who have 12 children and the parents work in chinuch, were happy about 'saving money' to make a wedding like this. It was sad, and painful, and my heart went out to each and every one of them.