For those who are strongly against continuing lockdown

imasinger

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:11 pm

What do you envision being the ideal?

Everything goes back to how it was before (except for those businesses that can't recover)?

Modified SD, with masks? Gloves? Space between people? No large gatherings? Staying home if you don't feel well?

People in hot spots isolating, but not anyone else?

What do we do about the fact that the disease is hitting hardest in the places where people are crowded the closest, have the least amount of cushion to stay home without starving? So, do the poor get the worst of both worlds?

amother

Amethyst

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:13 pm

imasinger wrote:

According to another thread, the poor are making more money now while sitting and watch TV so...

amother

Pearl

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:26 pm

Go back to how things were. No masks- they are uncomfortable. Staying away from people and not touching things is hard.
Simchas should be simchas, with all my family and friends.
If some people don't like it they can stay home. If people die, well Hashem decides who should live and die anyway so why is that my problem. My parents are young so I'm not worried.

** written tongue and cheek.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:27 pm

I don't know. I know my dh is anti lockdown but he's also anti living like sardines in ny Wink

the problem is really as you say that for poor people its not a choice they make because they liket the "city life".

where we live the deathrate is really very low but we live in a more of a rural area, people are spaced apart..

amother

Natural

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:56 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

I wish we could have this discussion intelligently and without one side being painted as selfish monsters. There is enough room to examine the concerns that people have regarding ending the lockdown and causing mass infection and death and continuing the lockdown and causing mass unemployment, hunger, despair, death, etc. As usual, the answer is more subtle and somewhere in the middle.

imasinger

Sun, May 10 2020, 1:59 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

Thank you, that's my intention.

A real conversation.

southernbubby

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:18 pm

imasinger wrote:

Thank you, that's my intention.

A real conversation.

Exactly!

I think that we should allow life to return to normal as much as possible but schools are already planning on using distance learning in case they have to close due to cases of COVID in those schools.
In my mind, the economy runs on discretionary spending more than what is spent on essentials. Vacations, weddings, buying new homes, all cause more money to circulate than when people are limited as to how they can spend. OTOH, if families flood Disney world, can the economy handle the increase in cases? People who are testing positive won't be able to work.
So how do we provide a safe path forward? Will people be happy to do Disney in cute character masks?

keym

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:18 pm

I don't have answers.
But I know that a huge problem in opening the economy is the American culture of actively or subconsciously pressuring people to come to work when they or the children are"mildly sick".
Ive worked in childcare over the years. And I can't tell you how many times a child is not 100% back to themselves- 99.5° fever, drippy nose, coughy, still sore throat after 24 hours on antibiotics, etc, and child gets sent to school or playgroup.
The parents aren't doing anything wrong, it's been cleared by the Dr.
And I don't blame the parents. They need to get to work. Otherwise they won't get paid, or lose health insurance, or whatever.
And the bosses aren't mean, nasty people. Not all jobs are doable remotely. You can't sell shoes, or do ultrasounds, or speech therapy from a distance.

But this is a huge problem that needs to be dealt with on a global level because future waves are going to come, and economy opening is based on people who are not well self-isolating until they're well again.

giselle

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:24 pm

A big problem is that whatever plan they come up with will not be perfect. People are going to suffer because we are going through a global crisis. And there are always going to be people who won’t listen and will point to the things that are going wrong (as tends to happen in a crisis) to justify what they’re doing.

amother

Copper

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:28 pm

I think things should go back to the way they were, more or less.
The CDC, iirc, stated that makes dont actually help. So no masks.
Gloves - how do they help if everyone touches the same things? Instead of germs transferring from hand-to-hand, they'll go from glove-to-glove.
Keeping businesses closed causes unemployment which leads to poverty. Poverty is the number one leading cause of poor health, and by extension, death. Keeping the economy shut isn't saving lives, its simply exchanging one set of lives for another.

So what can be done? Maybe limiting events to 100 participants, limiting crowding in stores, etc to prevent a second outbreak - I.e. to prevent overcrowded hospitals again.
There's no vaccine or cure in sight. We will just have to live with this disease for the foreseeable future. But keeping the lockdown without a set end date is not actually helping society.

amother

Slategray

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:31 pm

keym wrote:

The other side is this is people aren't as productive at home. They aren't devoting working hours to working. My friend owns a company where the computer keeps tract of the time people spend on it working for the corporation. If you own a company, you don't want to be paying people to take care of their kids.

amother

Gray

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:34 pm

How can we expect women to go back to work if our kids are not in school?
I think stores should open but with only letting few ppl at a time, no children, and wearing masks and gloves. We should also continue trying to use phone orders, online ordering, curbside pickup and delivery whenever possible.
Weddings and simchos should be less ppl for next few months.
What’s the plan for July and August??

amother

Peach

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:38 pm

I don’t think it’s feasible to keep schools online any longer than necessary- kids are losing academics and more important social skills.
Parents can’t work effectively until the kids are back in school.
At the same time, social distancing is impossible in schools. Kids and teachers aren’t going to stay six feet away or manage to wear masks all day.
It’s also unclear how long this will last. Maybe we can manage another month, but we don’t want the second wave hitting with flu season, because there will be a second wave.

amother

Orchid

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:43 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

In Taiwan kids wear masks all day - and eat with protective sheilds around their desks. Their temps are checked every morning.

Why isn't this feasible in the US?

Just One

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:47 pm

Continue mandating masks. They definitely are nowhere near 100% effective but they do provide a degree of protection against spread.
Limit occupancy to a certain degree so you don't have people literally breathing down each other's necks. Though I don't believe 6 ft. or extremely low occupancy limits like 25% are sustainable.
Sanitize public areas regularly
Isolate those that are sick
Keep overflow facilities like javitz center available for possible peaks
I don't think huge gatherings like sports arenas are safe until we've slowly reached some level of natural herd immunity or through vaccination

keym

Sun, May 10 2020, 2:53 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

100% I understand the problem.
But that's the Crux.
Unless we incentivize both employers and employees to take off when they or the children are sick or under the weather, there's no realistic way to deal with the upcoming waves.

Most people can't afford to self-isolate for several weeks without getting paid, with a fear of losing their job and insurance.
And I have no confidence in laws being passed because people find a way around the laws. It happened for pregnant women, etc.