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Forum
-> Parenting our children
sub
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 Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:08 am
| banana123 wrote: | We don't give that punishment to murderers who pride themselves on it and say they would do it again in a heartbeat.
We don't give that punishment to abusive parents or zxual predators of either gender.
I think prison is just fine for these ladies. |
Not sure what you’re thinking. I meant they should be hung upside down tarred and feathered and those kids should play wak amole with them. Or something long those lines
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ora_43
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:09 am
| banana123 wrote: | | First of all, as they get older they become less vulnerable and the ways they can be abused become less. Second, being able to express yourself means that you can report the abuse early on, instead of suffering for months or years until someone noticed. |
It means that could happen, not that you can rely on the fact that it will happen. I don't care how close you are to your kids, if you feel 100% confident that they'd tell you if they were being harassed or bullied, you're over-confident. We can only ever hope.
As for cameras - everything you're saying about cameras could also be said about waiting until your child is older to send them to daycare. Neither is a perfect solution. Because there are no perfect solutions.
| Quote: | | Exactly, which is why they're not such reasonable suggestions. |
And suggesting that women not be allowed to work is a reasonable suggestion?
The other alternatives suggested here are that 1. the abuse continues, 2. parents can't work. My proposed solution is far more reasonable than either of those. Instituting all of them might cost, what, another 1,000 shekels a month? Quite a lot, true - but quite a lot less than quitting work and having 0 shekels a month.
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:10 am
| sub wrote: | | Not sure what you’re thinking. I meant they should be hung upside down tarred and feathered and those kids should play wak amole with them. Or something long those lines |
And we don't even do that for terrorists or mass murderers.
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sub
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:17 am
| banana123 wrote: | | And we don't even do that for terrorists or mass murderers. |
And your point is?
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:19 am
| ora_43 wrote: | It means that could happen, not that you can rely on the fact that it will happen. I don't care how close you are to your kids, if you feel 100% confident that they'd tell you if they were being harassed or bullied, you're over-confident. We can only ever hope.
As for cameras - everything you're saying about cameras could also be said about waiting until your child is older to send them to daycare. Neither is a perfect solution. Because there are no perfect solutions. |
Anything could happen, but on the scale that we're talking about here, it's very unlikely that it will happen, or even could happen if the child were older, and more able to protect himself and report abuse.
These babies were completely helpless.
As for cameras - yes, that's true. And still, statistically, the older a child is the less likely he is to experience abuse from a childcare provider.
| Quote: | And suggesting that women not be allowed to work is a reasonable suggestion?
The other alternatives suggested here are that 1. the abuse continues, 2. parents can't work. My proposed solution is far more reasonable than either of those. Instituting all of them might cost, what, another 1,000 shekels a month? Quite a lot, true - but quite a lot less than quitting work and having 0 shekels a month. |
Suggesting that women not work is kind of extreme, if you do it on a national level. On a personal level, it is much more feasible. Even better would be something that allowed couples to choose which parent works, and a system which allows and encourages working from home and part-time jobs instead of jobs that require leaving children in childcare from 7-5. However, none of these solutions are what the public wants, so no, they're not going to happen.
All of the suggestions you gave aim to improve the system are on a national level, and because they cost more money than parents are willing to put out, they are not going to happen. I'm all for it, and have been talking about those changes for years. No one wants them, because they're not willing to foot the bill.
At the end of the day, if not enough people are willing to do what it takes to make a change, change cannot and will not happen. When we wanted 3 sayaot for 3yos, we got them. When we wanted shorter vacations and school during Chanuka, we got it. When we wanted free gan 3, we got it. When we wanted programs for subsidized housing, we got them. When we wanted cameras in daycares, we got a law requiring them. When we wanted longer maternity leave, we got that too.
What the public truly wants - it ends up receiving. The public does not truly want safer daycares, because they do not want to have to foot the bill for it each month. And until that changes, things are going to stay as is. Even ignoring the abuse, many more children are going to be without childcare this year because of coronavirus. No one wants to make that shortage worse.
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:20 am
| sub wrote: | | And your point is? |
It's not reasonable to demand it for these daycare workers, nor is it fair.
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sub
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:32 am
| banana123 wrote: | | It's not reasonable to demand it for these daycare workers, nor is it fair. |
1- should the daycare system be overhauled? Yes!!!
2- should people take their frustrations out on others, especially helpless little children? NO!!!!!!
3- should they be punished? YES!!!
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ora_43
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:34 am
| banana123 wrote: | | Suggesting that women not work is kind of extreme, if you do it on a national level. On a personal level, it is much more feasible. |
There's no such thing as the decision being only on a personal level. Whatever decisions happen on a national level, affect the personal level.
And even if that weren't true, I disagree that it's more feasible on a personal level. Maybe if someone wants to have 2 kids, maybe then they could swing a total of 4-5 years out of the workforce. That's still earning, on average, 300,000 less over a lifetime, which is huge, but some couples could do it.
But what about frum couples? How are families with an average of 5-6 kids supposed to do it? Supporting 7-8 people on a single salary is just not an option for many many families.
...And I'm not sure it would be worth it if it were. The average couple wasn't going to spend that entire 300,000 on ice coffee and manicures. They were going to spend it on things like a newer, safer car, or a house in a better neighborhood, or tutoring. Prepare your tomatoes if you must, but - at some point, the risk of abuse is outweighed by the other risks, the ones that that 300,000 could mitigate.
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:37 am
| sub wrote: | 1- should the daycare system be overhauled? Yes!!!
2- should people take their frustrations out on others, especially helpless little children? NO!!!!!!
3- should they be punished? YES!!! |
1. Yes the system should be overhauled. (But parents are going to need to be willing to pay for the overhaul.)
2. NO the daycare abusers have no right to take their feelings out on helpless little children.
3. YES they should be punished and they will be punished. But not the way you described.
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sub
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:41 am
| banana123 wrote: | 1. Yes the system should be overhauled. (But parents are going to need to be willing to pay for the overhaul.)
2. NO the daycare abusers have no right to take their feelings out on helpless little children.
3. YES they should be punished and they will be punished. But not the way you described. |
1-Yes. This is something I can’t begin to understand. People are willing to spend on clothing, vacations, restaurants but not on childcare.   
3- I know, but that would get people to think twice before they abuse kids. Don’t you think?
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:43 am
| ora_43 wrote: | There's no such thing as the decision being only on a personal level. Whatever decisions happen on a national level, affect the personal level.
And even if that weren't true, I disagree that it's more feasible on a personal level. Maybe if someone wants to have 2 kids, maybe then they could swing a total of 4-5 years out of the workforce. That's still earning, on average, 300,000 less over a lifetime, which is huge, but some couples could do it.
But what about frum couples? How are families with an average of 5-6 kids supposed to do it? Supporting 7-8 people on a single salary is just not an option for many many families.
...And I'm not sure it would be worth it if it were. The average couple wasn't going to spend that entire 300,000 on ice coffee and manicures. They were going to spend it on things like a newer, safer car, or a house in a better neighborhood, or tutoring. Prepare your tomatoes if you must, but - at some point, the risk of abuse is outweighed by the other risks, the ones that that 300,000 could mitigate. |
What I meant was that a parent can decide not to send to daycare, on the personal level. But mandating that from the top is problematic.
It is feasible but it has to be top top priority, because otherwise you won't manage it for more than a kid or two. I know people (frum) who managed to keep their first and sometimes second out of daycare but after that it became too difficult. I don't see how the government can make it more feasible with Israel's birthrate as high as it is.
Supporting 7-8 people on one salary can be an option but not unless we make big changes in how things work.
I'm not going to argue with your last point. I do want to add that some of the things parents might have to spend on might be avoidable (not for every child but for some children) if children were not sent to daycare so young. Like you said, there is a trade-off somewhere here. And avoiding abuse is far from the only reason not to send to daycare.
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:50 am
| sub wrote: | 1-Yes. This is something I can’t begin to understand. People are willing to spend on clothing, vacations, restaurants but not on childcare.
3- I know, but that would get people to think twice before they abuse kids. Don’t you think? |
I don't get it either.
Not 1. And not 3.
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:52 am
| ora_43 wrote: | There's no such thing as the decision being only on a personal level. Whatever decisions happen on a national level, affect the personal level.
And even if that weren't true, I disagree that it's more feasible on a personal level. Maybe if someone wants to have 2 kids, maybe then they could swing a total of 4-5 years out of the workforce. That's still earning, on average, 300,000 less over a lifetime, which is huge, but some couples could do it.
But what about frum couples? How are families with an average of 5-6 kids supposed to do it? Supporting 7-8 people on a single salary is just not an option for many many families.
...And I'm not sure it would be worth it if it were. The average couple wasn't going to spend that entire 300,000 on ice coffee and manicures. They were going to spend it on things like a newer, safer car, or a house in a better neighborhood, or tutoring. Prepare your tomatoes if you must, but - at some point, the risk of abuse is outweighed by the other risks, the ones that that 300,000 could mitigate. |
The bottom line is that daycares need to change.
But they won't unless parents are willing to put in the necessary funds.
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amother
Magenta
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 10:58 am
I feel so traumatized just reading ABOUT the video that I cant even dream of opening it.
My emotions are too close to the surface on this one...
I remember feeling like this when my husband read a book called HUSH and I was unable to
bear the horror of reading it. After one chapter I had to stop.
I don't know why I am posting this, but I am sitting here with tears streaming down my face and my online work piling up as I even contemplate the abuse of helpless children.
I guess I need to find a therapist....
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heidi
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:28 am
Everyone is busy accusing parents for working.
I don't think that's the issue.
My question is how parents didn't pick up the warning signs.
Kids crying when they're dropped off even after an adjustment period.
Kids having trouble sleeping.
Playing violently.
Self abuse.
Parents from the gan are on the radio screaming about their horribly traumatized children.
Why didn't they notice till now?
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:47 am
| heidi wrote: | Everyone is busy accusing parents for working.
I don't think that's the issue.
My question is how parents didn't pick up the warning signs.
Kids crying when they're dropped off even after an adjustment period.
Kids having trouble sleeping.
Playing violently.
Self abuse.
Parents from the gan are on the radio screaming about their horribly traumatized children.
Why didn't they notice till now? |
I posted this earlier, but I'll answer again.
It's very very difficult to discern the warning signs.
Kids crying when they're dropped off is sometimes simply an issue adjusting and completely unrelated to maon.
Kids having trouble sleeping is often because the naptime at maon is later than when they need to be napping, so they're not tired when it's bedtime.
Violent play can go unnoticed very easily if the only time your kids have to play at home is on Friday afternoons and Shabbat, and much of that time isn't spent in free play. Plus, it can easily be explained by other children hitting and biting, which in Israel is perfectly acceptable and normal.
Self-abuse is relatively rare.
Put simply, until now, the parents did not put two and two together. Now they have, and they are not yet over the shock.
Also, take into consideration that many parents prefer to send to the same maon from birth until age 3, instead of switching every year. If you put your 3.5mo into this center and never had issues before, then you're less likely to think that it might be abuse now.
Even if you were relatively new to this maon, if your child has been in a maon since 3.5mo, you may not notice a sudden change in behavior, because you have no "non-maon" baseline to compare it to. All you have is "this maon behavior" and "that maon behavior." And if the previous maon was not a night-and-day difference, there may not be a night-and-day difference in your child's behavior for you to notice.
Many children did do better during lockdown and then regressed immediately upon returning to maon/gan, or a few weeks later. But that, too, can be brushed off easily as "of course children do better when they're with their parents, but we need to work."
Last edited by banana123 on Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Black
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:47 am
| Quote: | | Cameras aren't that expensive to operate. And because there were cameras, we can prosecute these abusers. But, cameras do not prevent abuse. |
What I dont understand is, these women KNEW they were being videoed and they had no problem continuing the abuse?! Does that mean that they really didnt think they were doing anything wrong?
Also, who put in these cameras? Who was looking over the video footage and how often? Looks like this abuse was going on for a while, so what was the point of the cameras?
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banana123
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:52 am
| amother [ Black ] wrote: | | Quote: | | Cameras aren't that expensive to operate. And because there were cameras, we can prosecute these abusers. But, cameras do not prevent abuse. |
What I dont understand is, these women KNEW they were being videoed and they had no problem continuing the abuse?! Does that mean that they really didnt think they were doing anything wrong?
Also, who put in these cameras? Who was looking over the video footage and how often? Looks like this abuse was going on for a while, so what was the point of the cameras? |
Az zehu, some of them knew and some did not.
The owner had the cameras put in. NO ONE looked over the footage (and that goes for every security camera in every maon) until this parent who had installed the cameras and came to fix a technical issue happened to notice the abuse while fixing the issue. And no one looks over the vast majority of security footage, unless there is an issue. Everyone knows that, so as long as no one suspects an issue, there's no reason for anyone to think they'll be caught.
The point of the cameras is that parents wanted them and demanded them, so they got them. And the other point of the cameras is so that abusers can be prosecuted - which is what's happening, hopefully.
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amother
Mauve
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:57 am
| heidi wrote: |
My question is how parents didn't pick up the warning signs.
Kids crying when they're dropped off even after an adjustment period.
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This is not entirely on topic, but I posted here once that my kids rarely cried or displayed any sort of separation anxiety at daycare drop-off and some brilliant imamother MD immediately popped up to say that this meant they weren't properly attached to me. So if you're a working mom, you'll be told there's something wrong either way. If they cry, they're being abused. If they don't cry, it's because they're not attached.
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amother
Purple
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Thu, Aug 13 2020, 11:57 am
I didn't read the whole thread and I didn't watch the video. I'm just trying to understand. this is a babysitting/playgroup setting where parents send their kids, right? if the children are abused, don't they cry every morning not to go? don't they display signs of distress when they are home? were there no signs? did ALL the parents just ignore the signs?
what's the story here?
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