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Forum
-> Parenting our children
#BestBubby
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 Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:41 pm
I would support a government stipend so women could have a two year maternity leave.
Don't think it is fair to make this on employers as no one would hire women.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:42 pm
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I grew up in the 80s and most frum women were SAHM. The question when I started dating in the mid late 90s was, do you want to stay at home once you have kids or do you want to work and marry someone in kollel. Then it shortly became almost unheard of not to marry someone in yeshiva. There simply wasn't anyone else to date unless you wanted to be more modern. This had nothing to do with American politics.
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dancingqueen
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:45 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | I would support a government stipend so women could have a two year maternity leave.
Don't think it is fair to make this on employers as no one would hire women. |
Your “mandate” would effectively take women out of the workforce, so it wouldn’t be an issue of hiring. It’s interesting, you seemed to be very against government impinging on people’s personal agency and freedom in other threads.
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#BestBubby
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:46 pm
| amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote: | | I grew up in the 80s and most frum women were SAHM. The question when I started dating in the mid late 90s was, do you want to stay at home once you have kids or do you want to work and marry someone in kollel. It became almost unheard of not to marry someone in yeshiva. There simply wasn't anyone else to date unless you wanted to be more modern. This had nothing to do with American politics. |
Nearly all mothers (non-jewish) were SAHM until the 1980s.
The women's movement convinced women they were "unfulfilled" if
they did not have a "career".
This doubled the workforce - and CUT WAGES in half. Flooding the country with
illegals made wages stagnate even more.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:51 pm
In the frum world, it was the kollel lifestyle.
Reread old Jewish Observer issues and you will see. They extolled and fiercely defended SAHM. Until the last few years of publication, when kollel young couples became the default. Then rhey started to publish articles defending working mothers. Just showed how the frum zeitgeist changed
You don't have to answer bestbubby, and it's none of my business but I really am curious, not specifically your age, but when you grew up/went to school/got married. I really can't tell. You intrigue me!
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#BestBubby
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:03 pm
| amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote: | In the frum world, it was the kollel lifestyle.
Reread old Jewish Observer issues and you will see. They extolled and fiercely defended SAHM. Until the last few years of publication, when kollel young couples became the default. Then rhey started to publish articles defending working mothers. Just showed how the frum zeitgeist changed
You don't have to answer bestbubby, and it's none of my business but I really am curious, not specifically your age, but when you grew up/went to school/got married. I really can't tell. You intrigue me! |
Born in the 1960s - when most mothers were SAHM. Mine was not - my parents owned
a store and we had cleaning ladies watching us who were sometimes quite rough.
I started pre-school at 3 and very much wanted to be home with my mother.
My husband was in kollel but I stayed home a couple of years - until my DD was 18 months and my DS was 3. I worked p/t one year and then nearly full time - was home by 5.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:11 pm
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Interesting! Thank you for sharing. We clearly come from different generations (plus you are a different generation than my parents, who are real baby boomers born in the late 40s), so it makes sense our differences in our personal experiences of frum social changes. I would guess I am a bit older than your kids, too, born in late 70s. No real overlap!
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Mommyg8
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:14 pm
| amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote: | In the frum world, it was the kollel lifestyle.
Reread old Jewish Observer issues and you will see. They extolled and fiercely defended SAHM. Until the last few years of publication, when kollel young couples became the default. Then rhey started to publish articles defending working mothers. Just showed how the frum zeitgeist changed
You don't have to answer bestbubby, and it's none of my business but I really am curious, not specifically your age, but when you grew up/went to school/got married. I really can't tell. You intrigue me! |
Thank you, periwinkle! The "frum kollel" lifestyle has completely changed. (I also like to re-read old Jewish Observer issues).
I guess the ideal, even today, would be a frum kollel wife to work hours that are compatible with raising a family.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:20 pm
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Mommyg8, I have a feeling we'd have a lot to talk about if we ever met IRL, even though hashkafically I think we lead different lifestyles. I've "discussed" reading material with you before, lol, on other threads.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:21 pm
| amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote: | | Mommyg8, I have a feeling we'd have a lot to talk about if we ever met IRL, even though hashkafically I think we lead different lifestyles. I've "discussed" reading material with you before, lol, on other threads. |
So interesting!!! I didn't realize I discussed my reading material before. But you have the advantage of me!!!
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:24 pm
Btwn the JO, David Zaretsky, and LM Montgomery, we definitely have.
Not to mention the very first editions of Mishpacha magazine, back in the day!
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keym
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:27 pm
I hate revIsionist history.
The middle and lower income mom's who stayed home with their babies ran from around 1945 (when the soldiers came home and it was patriotic for the ladies to give the jobs back to the boys) until 85/90 when housing prices started climbing.
Moms always worked unless they were obscenely wealthy and they hired governesses.
But grandma's, aunties, widowed neighbors would babysit or Mom would get work brought home to her and she'd see for 10 hours a day while the 4 year old would mind the baby (piecework in the 20s).
The SAHM who cooks and cleans was a product of propaganda in the 50s to convince women who tasted working in the workplace during the depression and war that they should back down for the men.
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#BestBubby
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:33 pm
Before WWII, even in Europe where there was great poverty, most women did not work.
Most had no refrigieration, everything had to be cooked from scratch daily.
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#BestBubby
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:35 pm
| keym wrote: | I hate revIsionist history.
The middle and lower income mom's who stayed home with their babies ran from around 1945 (when the soldiers came home and it was patriotic for the ladies to give the jobs back to the boys) until 85/90 when housing prices started climbing.
Moms always worked unless they were obscenely wealthy and they hired governesses.
But grandma's, aunties, widowed neighbors would babysit or Mom would get work brought home to her and she'd see for 10 hours a day while the 4 year old would mind the baby (piecework in the 20s).
The SAHM who cooks and cleans was a product of propaganda in the 50s to convince women who tasted working in the workplace during the depression and war that they should back down for the men. |
While many poor immigrant women worked in factories or sewed at home, most
american wives did not work.
They did live on a much lower standard of living though.
Michael Jackson's father was a factory worker who supported a stay at home wife and nine kids and lived in a one family house, owned a car and tv. That's when we had high paying jobs in USA.
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#BestBubby
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:38 pm
My DD works in a daycare, that her kids attend. My DIL has her own kindergarten group.
All my grandkids were by babysitters or daycare.
When COVID lockdown came, the toddlers were happy to be home with their moms.
The kids over 3 missed pre-school.
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amother
Slateblue
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:40 pm
I am old enough to remember that it was rare in the states when a mother was working -
As we got older some mothers chose to work part time when kids were in school
Latchkey kids was not a phenomena then
People basically lived on the husbands paycheck
And less job turnover
And schools used to break in the middle for kids to go have lunch at home
This changed when more mothers began to work so kids stayed in school for lunch
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tiedyed4life
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:43 pm
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Women who lived in the country (as most did) worked the farm which was their livelihood so technically they worked with their husbands. Lots of women did laundry, baking, sewing, teaching, medical care and other "womanly" tasks for money. Plenty worked in their husband's or families shop. It's always only been middle class and up who could just stay at home and when they do/did they had hired help. Either for cleaning, cooking or childcare. The difference today is that most work is outside of the home, and the lower class is much much larger. Most families need 2 incomes, or the husband is in kollel, or they can't afford help. Gan ends up being cheaper and then mom isn't expected to do absolutely everything. They call it school so even those who can manage to stay at home and get everything done feel guilty that their 18 month old isn't learning and socialising. Families are moving away at faster rates so you don't have the various aunts, cousins and grandparents to watch the kids. Even if they did they aren't "teaching" them so it's considered less desirable
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amother
Periwinkle
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 3:49 pm
Yes, historically, a lot depended on where you lived, country vs city. Plus, socioeconomic status. Middle class and up usually could manage on husband's job. Lower middle class and immigrants needed the women's income.
A lot of jobs were closed to women. Even teaching was relegated to single women, for the most part. Certainly no married woman with a child would be allowed to teach prior to the 40s, for the most part. I am sure there were a few exceptions.
Bestbubby is right, the 1980s is probably when things massively changed. And what happens in the outside world eventually comes to the frum world. We are usually a little behind.
This probably is what allowed the kollel lifestyle to take off and become so widespread in the 90s and beyond.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:08 pm
| keym wrote: | I hate revIsionist history.
The middle and lower income mom's who stayed home with their babies ran from around 1945 (when the soldiers came home and it was patriotic for the ladies to give the jobs back to the boys) until 85/90 when housing prices started climbing.
Moms always worked unless they were obscenely wealthy and they hired governesses.
But grandma's, aunties, widowed neighbors would babysit or Mom would get work brought home to her and she'd see for 10 hours a day while the 4 year old would mind the baby (piecework in the 20s).
The SAHM who cooks and cleans was a product of propaganda in the 50s to convince women who tasted working in the workplace during the depression and war that they should back down for the men. |
I'm also not too fond of revisionist history and it's not exactly the way you just described.
No, most moms did not work until very fairly recently. As someone mentioned, the rural moms would help out by keeping chickens and gardening (read LM Montgomery and Laura Ingalls Wilder) and of course, making much of their own food and clothing.
Women who worked "in service" were not allowed to have children. Possibly they gave them up to someone else to raise, but that was not the official mantra.
Many lower class women did work from home doing things like sewing and laundry, but it was not considered ok to go to work when children were little.
In L.M. Montgomery's biography, I read that her son did not adequately support his family so his wife had to work. She locked the door to her home leaving two very tiny children to fend for themselves, and left them there by themselves all day while she was at work. I'm not sure what happened to those two poor children, but I'm convinced it wasn't good things. Such was the face of poverty in the "good old" days.
Poor children often roamed the streets, and still do in some third world countries. Read Charles Dickens for an illustration.
No, things were not so warm and fuzzy back in the "good old" days. Mothers sometimes worked, but the consequences were not in the least bit pleasant.
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Mommyg8
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Fri, Aug 14 2020, 4:10 pm
| amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote: | Btwn the JO, David Zaretsky, and LM Montgomery, we definitely have.
Not to mention the very first editions of Mishpacha magazine, back in the day! |
Oh wow, it's been quite a while since we discussed that, I do remember!
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