Upgrading covering

Odelyah

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

And by quoting these sourced words and info im insisting that women change their views:)

Honestly- this is social media where every topic is hotly contested. To write that its off for a person to write what they have learned but thats its fine to express other views the other way is wrong and hypocritical.
You clearly dont feel a tichel is ideal- (again no one has posted a sourced quote written by a Litvish rav that a sheitel is the ideal) so thats okay to write? But quoting Rav Elyashiv ztl, Rav Wosner, the Divrei Chaim, the Chasam Sofer etc... is missionizing.
There is a reason why many women now are trying to wear tichels in the Litvish world and that needs to be respected - they learned about all the history and Gedolim and feel strongly its ideal. There was even a kol korei recently publicized by Rav Gans shlita signed by some very chashuv Rabbanim including Rav Ezriel Auerbavh, rav Sriel Rosenberg, Rav Meir Keller etc... (all very strongly Litvish)
This was around pesach time this past year. They wrote (quoted directly in English)
"...already in the year 5756, the Gedoli Yisrael wrote that the vast majority of the new wigs are not in accordance with the ways of modesty. Since than the situation is only getting worse.
...we would like to strengthen and encourage those women who, as a result of the above- mentioned deterioration, have taken upon themselves - with the agreement of their husbands - to completely refrain from wearing a sheitel outdoors, and instead to only wear a cloth head covering.
We may not chas vashalom weaken those who strenthen themselves in this area. And even more so, in these times, when the sheiteks are becoming more and more foreign to tznius. Quite the contrary, it is incumbent upon us to rejoice and bless this admirable endeavor. It is our hope that there should be many more women like these in Klal Yisroel.
Each time a woman refrains from wearing a sheitel, it is a separate zechus and mitzvah on its own- as per the opinion of Maran HaGaon Rav Shalom Yosef Elyashiv ztl..."

This letter was legitimately written, signed abd printed this past year all over israel and america.
But I guess some would call it brainwashing:)

this is untrue. because I don't think one mesorah is ideal to the exclusion of others. However since I and my husband have learned from Litvish gedolim and I am part of a yeshivish community, I sometimes consider the fact that I wear tichels most of the time less than ideal for ME. not for anyone else. at all. For anyone else to follow their own mesorah, or rav, or are doing what works for them, I view as 100% ideal for them.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 11:19 am

Okay- I am very very litvish and yeshivish as are many of my friends who have now upgraded to tichels/hats (yes we learned its a major upgrade and consider it an upgrade- why else would I wear a tichel?? I liked my wigs!)
So we can all agree that clearly many litvish Rabbanim and Rebbetzins and people do hold that it is a major upgrade to wear a tichel - so there is no mesorah of a sheitel across the board in the litvish world.
And I have yet to see any written source anywhere (not just my Rav or Rebbetzin told me) from any Litvish Gadol or Rav that a sheitel is ideal over a cloth head covering.

Off topic but very telling- no one in the secular world wears tichels for fashion (its a clear modest religious symbol when a woman is covering all her hair with a scarf) but wigs are now the hottest selling item among many celebrities and actresses and singers - worn for glamor only. There are so many articles on line now how sheitels are the hottest trend in hollywood and every celebrity has a bunch of wigs and how easy it it look like one has perfect hair today....

Odelyah

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 11:28 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Uh no.
You stated clearly that a tichel is the mesorah of chassidim and sephardim but not considered an upgrade in the blue blood litvish world.
So I responded (justly so) that many litvish Gedolim and people hold differently than you. I quoted why and who and now im missionizing.
You did not make it clear that many litvish Gedolin and Poskim hold the tichel is an upgrade and ideal at all but you hold differently. You made a blanket statement that tichels are ideal in the chassidush and sephardic circles but that litvish is more like chabad. (Which is totally not true as I showed, and yes obviously you are going to wear whatever you feel you should wear- but you cant make general statements regarding what Litvish Rabbanim hold but than get upset when theres a response showing strongly otherwise!

yes this was an inaccurate generalization and I appreciated that others pointed this out. and yes I already know what Rav Elyashiv and others wrote about sheitels. My point about Telz (which is also true about other Litvish gedolim, but I have a direct clear mesorah about Telz so I emphasized that) was only in reponse to your statement about Litvish upgrades to tichels. to point out that it is not as black and white as you think, and that certainly a Litvish woman who prefers sheitels should not be bombarded with sources to try to convince her to change, when in fact she has a strong mesorah to back up her sheitel wearing as l'chatchila. and just that a little respect is in order. this is not about what I "hold" because I don't "hold". aylu v'ailu divrei elokim chayim. truly.

lilies

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 11:34 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Off topic but very telling- no one in the secular world wears tichels for fashion (its a clear modest religious symbol when a woman is covering all her hair with a scarf) but wigs are now the hottest selling item among many celebrities and actresses and singers - worn for glamor only. There are so many articles on line now how sheitels are the hottest trend in hollywood and every celebrity has a bunch of wigs and how easy it it look like one has perfect hair today....

Off topic and very not telling - if there can be a fashion for a shaved head then a cloth covering can be the next fashion item.

Odelyah

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 11:46 am

lilies wrote:

Off topic and very not telling - if there can be a fashion for a shaved head then a cloth covering can be the next fashion item.

for sure.

anyway fashions come and go. when I got married wigs were definitely not in style except for black women. but I remember my mother saying when she was a young woman wigs and hairpieces were a thing. and at times scarves, bandannas etc are in style. I was a kind of a hippie (in high school) before I was litvish Wink

and I used to wear fringy Israeli/Indian tichels just because I liked them. I used to wear my long hair wrapped up in one in art class to keep it out of the way. so whatever. the fashion thing is neither here nor there..

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:34 pm

Totally respect all opinions.
Doesnt mean all opinions are correct.
I think whats important are sourced quotes and info and Gedolims words in printed sefarim and letters etc..
And again there has yet to be any sourced printed psak or any printed words of Gedolim stating a sheitel is ideal or the mesorah in the litvish world.
There are many many many sefarim, articles, and quotes (from sefarim) saying quite the opposite- and pointing out how a wig was never a mesorah or the ideal in any way. Ive spoken to many people about it. Its clear that there is a halachic heter (which was very debated as Rav Elyshiv and many others wrote about and stated) but it was never considered the ideal or a mesorah.
And the past few decades many great Gedolim have come out so strongly about how the wigs today have become so immodest.
Like this kol korei that was printed in many places this past year. Lots of women switched because of it- they actually didnt know Rav Elyashiv ztl felt this way. I actually know the Rav that went in to Rav Gans about it- rav Gans wanted it publicized all over. His daughter also confirmed that.
Rav Ezriel Auerbach shlita wrote on the bottom of the kol korei-
"It is clear and evident that the wig situation requires great rectification. Therefore the modest women who took upon themselves to wear a tichel should be encouraged."
Rav Kessler (the chief rav of kiryat sefer- super litvish) wrote:
"Fortunate are the tznuos who are fulfilling Das Yehudis to the utmost without rationations and in their zechus we will be redeemed bkorov."
This is not a simple topic.
Also Rav Elyashiv ztl lived very recently and saw what todays wigs looked like- thats why he called most of them erva.
Why should women not know this info? Its not taught anywhere but it should be.
Its one of our most important mitzvos and we do it every second of the day.
Rebbetzin Kalmanovitz (very litvish) gave a few very strong shiurim on kisui rosh stating that the yetzer hora knew where to get us- in this very important mitzvah. In the shiurim she read from the sefer Hakeser Vehakavod quoting all these Gedolim explaining how the wigs used to becso ugly and such an obvious hair covering. Nothing like today. She also explained how the tichel was always our mesorah and the most ideal.
I have friends that switched from her shiurim on the topic

amother

Red

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:41 pm

Amother yellow, would it be presumptuous of me to guess that you are part of the new wave of tichel wearers who advertises in the magazines and have a hotline?

I personally think tichels are more tznius'dig and am seriously considering switching to one, but I am turned off by the missionizing of some members of this movement.

The letters and quotes you bring are wonderful, and they are a part of what inspires me to move towards the direction of a tichel instead of a wig, but arguing with a poster who has a direct mesorah for something else is a bit facetious, in my opinion, and I think that's why you're getting backlash. It may be hard for you to accept, but there is almost nothing in halacha that hasn't been vociferously debated by gedolim. And yes, some disagreements contradict each other, which is why for one woman a shaitel may be ideal in her mesorah, and for another, a scarf may be. Ailu v'ailu.

In my humble opinion, if you (and I don't mean any poster specifically, but a general 'you') upgrade your hair covering while looking down at others who don't, you haven't upgraded at all.

(I know this it totally different than OP's original question. Maybe we should split the threads...)

amother

Red

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:46 pm

Amother yellow, I see you posted again while I was writing.

I disagree that seforim trump a live rav whom one has spoken to.

I personally know of a few people who went to a chassidishe rebbe, wanting to switch to a tichel, and he told them not to because a shaitel was their mesorah. I don't know if he meant it as a general psak for his kehillah, or for them, but it doesn't matter to me because I'm not part of a kehillah.

Bottom line, if a rav told you personally not to switch to a tichel, than doing so would be wrong, no matter how many letters and seforim you have at your disposal saying the opposite.

keym

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 12:57 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Keym and Odelyah, Hi from a fellow Telzer! I usually jump in on these conversations but really didnt have the patience today. Thanks for standing up for us!

Hi. There are probably dozens of us directly or indirectly.
I don't have the energy for a real fight.
I just get nervous.
There are posters who are vulnerable and malleable. Being hit over the head emotionally over and over and over and over about hidurim and the best way and this Rav and this source.
I felt it was my responsibility to put out there first hand conversations I've had with R Avraham Chaim Levin and R Chaim Dov Keller about the Telshe derech and Telshe mesora to beshita wear nice, natural, modern shaitels.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 1:38 pm

This is not about looking down at others at all. No one is looking down at anyone. Its just info that is being debated. None of this is personal. Do you know how many times ive heard from yeshivish woman that a tichel is modern, sephardic or chassidush and not litvush, that its not respectful etc... I dont get personally insulted. Theres just a lot of misinformation (and yes prejudice against tichel wearers in certain circles).
Hearing words that are quoted from women from Rabbanim that are not recorded anywhere or written down is not reliable. We dont know the conversation, the situation, what exactly the Rav said or why. A written signed letter or sefer is clear proof- its a valid source. I could also start quoting all the Rabbanim I spoke to about this topic and what they said etc... but how could people know in what context things were said or why. Maybe a Rav said a sheitel is good to wear at a certain time when women werent covering their hair at all, or he meant it for a specific woman because she had a bad marriage etc... theres no way to know why a Rav said something (or if he even said something) unless its written and sourced.

Again there still hasnt been a single valid written source stating that a sheitel is the mesorah or ideal from any litvish Rav. (Im not arguing about the heter.) And there is just so much written and sourced info on this topic clearly showing otherwise. Or at least in a recorded shiur. Ive never heard anything in a shiur- again just the opposite.

Theres absolutely nothing with researching our mitzvah and reading about it and learning more.
Another interesting point- in the popular Peninim book studied by thousands of women it states about wigs:
"Originally women covered their hair with a tichel or scarf. Today it has been accepted in klal Yisael that a woman may cover her hair with a wig, although it should be noted that there are opinions which are strongly opposed to it...
If a woman settles in a community where the women do not wear a wig, because they follow the view of the Poskim who forbid it, she is obligated to conduct herself to the prevailing custom and refrain from wearing a wig."
This is a very popular litvish book that thousands of peninim groups studied.
How could a wig be more ideal than a tichel? As it states jewish women always wore tichels. There were Gedolim strongly opposed to a wig. If a wig wearing woman moves to a community of tichel wearing women because they are more stringent she is o obligated to do the same (this is actually sourced from Oz Vehadar, Rav Falk). This would never be the opposite - because the tichel is an upgrade to a wig.
This shouldnt offend women- it is what it is.
And writing these statements is not disrespectful of others. Its stating sourced and printed info from grear Rabbanim

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 1:51 pm

Again I wasnt going to even mention this info until others made comments about how a tichel is not an upgrade in the litvish world. I dont believe its fair or right to not respond to that especially when many women feel this way in the litvish world based on misinformation. There are countless women who want to switch to tichels and are told by peers that its not accepted in yeshivish circles etc... that its socially off and extreme etc... that the sheitel is the mesorah...
This is damaging and wrong- the only way this view could be corrected is by learning the history, facts etc..
Its not missionizing! Its just giving over info. No one has to read the thread. It came up and why should there be no response.
I really think that those women who are I terested should just try to get books on the subject. Everone has free will to learn what they want regardless of what they are told.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:47 pm

Just to clarify I never said women shouldn't listen to their Rav. But a woman doesnt necessarily need to ask a Rav about taking a step in modesty (unless there are other connected issues like the husband is not on board etc...). And a women could do whatever research she wants
I actually spoke directly to a current very prominent chashuv and well known American Posek last year. I know this is a conversation and not a sourced quote- but he did tell me that if a woman wants to wear a tichel and the husband is supportive- what's the question. She doesnt need to ask a Rav and she should do what her husband wants. This Rav is not against wigs- he did tell me that he knows some Gedolim asured wigs but hes more lenient. And he did say a tichel is a "gevalde zach". Hes extremely Lithuanian.
I only called him because a friend of mine in a very yeshivish litvish community wanted to put on a tichel and her husband was supportive but because its more unusual in her community she felt she needed to find out from a Gadol.
I thought it was a very clear answer.
But again this was my personal conversation with a Gadol so obviously its not a psak for the klal (although he was saying it as a general rule) But women can really find out a lot by reading and researching on their own.