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Forum
-> Children's Health
-> Vaccinations
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amother
Bronze
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 Mon, Apr 12 2021, 3:55 am
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I'm one of those waiting to see how the vaccines play out, and this is the first time I have seen a decently researched (there are a couple of issues with a few of his points) and well-written piece stating my reservations exactly. Thanks for sharing.
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amother
Brunette
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 4:11 am
I got the Covid vaccine but won't get it for my kids (if it becomes available, they're all under 16).
I didnt notice when the article was written, but you can just look at Israel which has the highest vaccine rate and see how Corona has gone way down, while in places like Canada it hasn't.
I was against lockdowns and mandatory masks, BUT I shouldn't let that influence my decision to vaccinate or not, IMO it's like saying "I won't get the flu shot because medical marijuana is illegal in my state!". You may not need the flu shot, it may be unfair that medical marijuana is illegal, but it's not the correct decision making process.
IMO high risk people need to vaccinate, avoid crowds and wear N95 masks if they must go to crowds. Low risk people should enjoy life as they always have, and people in the middle should make their own informed decision
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Zus
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 4:47 am
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Would you like my professional opinion?
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amother
Pewter
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:24 am
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We will never know if covid goes down once most people are vaccinated they stop testing for that illnes and will keep it under wraps
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juggling
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:32 am
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | | We will never know if covid goes down once most people are vaccinated they stop testing for that illnes and will keep it under wraps |
This is simply untrue, at least for now. Majority of the population in Israel has been vaccinated. Covid tests are still being done as a condition to travel and, for the unvaccinated, as a condition for attending all types of events. There is a strong push to test in schools, they're offering perks (basically rolling back most corona restrictions) to schools where more than 70% of the students are tested weekly. Obviously vaccinated adults who are not symptomatic are not testing much, but there is still plenty of testing happening.
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amother
Black
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 7:22 am
Reasons why my family won't get the vaccine today: (we vaccinate for everything, even for Flu annually)
1- the vaccine is approved for "emergency use". Im waiting until its approved just like any other vaccine
2- people are still getting Covid after getting vaccinated. The data isn't out there. I dont know of any agency that's collecting this data to study. (I also know that people can get sick from the flu after taking the vaccine. Members of my family had this pleasure, but they weren't nearly as sick as when we got the flu without the vaccine. )
3- to many unknown side effects. Again, no one is collecting this data. People are having weird side effects. Within a week of taking one of the vaccines I know someone that lost his hearing in 1 ear. After many dr visits, MRIs and testing, they werent able to find anything that caused the hearing loss. I know someone else that is certain they got sick from Covid after getting the first vaccine.
4- my family is bh healthy. Our drs aren't to concerned if we do get sick from Covid. We got drs approval to host an essential employee last pesach. (Bh no one got sick)
5 - my family has been highly exposed to Covid multiple times. Bh no one got sick. Im partially convinced we may be immuned to it.
6- I haven't yet heard of any adjustments done to any vaccine, to make it more effective or to minimize the side effects.
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amother
Maroon
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 7:38 am
| Zus wrote: | | Would you like my professional opinion? |
Yes please!
(And can you remind us again what your title/degree is?)
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amother
OP
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 7:42 am
| Zus wrote: | | Would you like my professional opinion? |
Sure, I would. I read your AMA thread. I am interested if you will like to.
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amother
OP
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 9:57 am
Here is an article printed today;
Nearly 100 Israeli Doctors Issue Letter Demanding That State Not Vaccinate Children Against COVID-19
April 11, 2021 11:00 pm
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Nearly 100 Doctors and medical professors signed their names to a letter requesting that the Israeli health system refrains from vaccinating children under any scenario unless the disease were to become dangerous to them.
According to a report by Channel 12 News, the doctors explained that “there is no room to vaccinate children at this time.” The doctors added that based on agreed-upon medical values, including “caution, humility, and do no harm” that there is not enough evidence or threat to vaccinate children against the disease. The doctors explained further that not enough is known about the disease and the various vaccines that have been produced to combat it.
Among the signatories of the letter are such well-renown Doctors as Dr. Amir Shachar, director of the emergency room at Laniado Hospital, Dr. Yoav Yehezkeli, an expert in internal medicine and a lecturer at Tel Aviv University, and Dr. Avi Mizrahi, director of the intensive care unit at Kaplan Hospital.
In the letter that was addressed to “the chiefs of the Israeli Ministry of Health, to our fellow doctors around the country, and to the entire public.”
They noted that “the increasingly prevalent opinion within the scientific community is that the vaccine cannot lead to herd immunity, therefore there is currently no ‘altruistic’ justification for vaccinating children to protect at-risk populations.”
They added that even today it is unclear whether the vaccine prevents the spread of the virus and for how long it confers protection and noted that new variants “that may be more resistant to vaccination are popping up all the time.”
The letter continues, “We believe that not even a handful of children should be endangered through mass vaccination against a disease that is not dangerous to them. Furthermore, it cannot be ruled out that the vaccine will have long-term adverse effects that have not yet been discovered at this time, including on growth, reproductive system, or fertility. Children should be allowed a quick return to routine; the many tests and broad isolation cycles should be stopped, and no separation between the vaccinated and unvaccinated should be created in the public sphere. Vaccination of at-risk populations should be allowed, and under the almost complete vaccination of this population – it is possible to return to full routine (with periodic adjustments) even in the presence of COVID-19 virus.”
“Therefore, we fear that at this point in time, there is under-reporting of side effects. Moreover, a causal link between events – if any – will only emerge in due course, as more and more events of a certain type accumulate. For example, if there is a serious health event that happens to 12 young people a year in Israel (ie – an average of 1 per month), while the vaccine also causes this serious event infrequently, it will take many months until it is clear that there is an increase in the incidence of the event, and that there is a connection between the vaccine and its appearance.”
“Do not rush to vaccinate children as long as the full picture is not clear. Coronavirus disease does not endanger children, and the first rule in medicine is, do no harm. The full picture is expected in many months, and possibly years. Moreover, one must wait for such documentation not only from Israeli data but from global data. In this context, it is worthy to add that black box warnings – about severe or life-threatening side effects – accumulate months and years after drug approval, due to the fact that severe but rare toxins appear, naturally, only over time.”
“We believe it is not appropriate to impose the inconvenience of vaccination on the pediatric population, where coronavirus is not dangerous, especially at this stage when the efficiency, in the long run, is not at all clear. Pediatrics in Israel is one of the best in the world, and pediatric intensive care – above all. It is extremely rare for a child to die of a viral disease, and this can happen, unfortunately, as a result of various types of viruses. We do not think it is right to manage private life and public health policy as a result of an ongoing fear of a viral illness that is very rarely liable to harm our children’s lives. ”
“In view of the fact that the vaccination of the vulnerable population reduces hospitalizations and mortality from Covid – we believe that the negative effects of the virus will be much smaller when the majority of the at-risk population is vaccinated, as begins to appear to be the case in the country, and this without the need to vaccinate children,” they explained.
“We believe that our children should be allowed to return to the routine of their blessed lives immediately, and should not be vaccinated against Covid-19. Asymptomatic children’s tests, which have no clinical significance but cause widespread indirect damage, and the mass isolation cycles in education frameworks, should be stopped immediately. It should be emphasized to the public that even vaccinated people can be infected and infect others, and that the same rules of conduct apply to everyone without connection to vaccination status. We must stop pointing the finger of blame at the unvaccinated, and we must stop violating the rights of the individual. We must immediately stop all forms of exclusion and separation between people in the public sphere.”
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amother
Brunette
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 10:14 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Here is an article printed today;
Nearly 100 Israeli Doctors Issue Letter Demanding That State Not Vaccinate Children Against COVID-19
April 11, 2021 11:00 pm
0
Nearly 100 Doctors and medical professors signed their names to a letter requesting that the Israeli health system refrains from vaccinating children under any scenario unless the disease were to become dangerous to them.
According to a report by Channel 12 News, the doctors explained that “there is no room to vaccinate children at this time.” The doctors added that based on agreed-upon medical values, including “caution, humility, and do no harm” that there is not enough evidence or threat to vaccinate children against the disease. The doctors explained further that not enough is known about the disease and the various vaccines that have been produced to combat it.
Among the signatories of the letter are such well-renown Doctors as Dr. Amir Shachar, director of the emergency room at Laniado Hospital, Dr. Yoav Yehezkeli, an expert in internal medicine and a lecturer at Tel Aviv University, and Dr. Avi Mizrahi, director of the intensive care unit at Kaplan Hospital.
In the letter that was addressed to “the chiefs of the Israeli Ministry of Health, to our fellow doctors around the country, and to the entire public.”
They noted that “the increasingly prevalent opinion within the scientific community is that the vaccine cannot lead to herd immunity, therefore there is currently no ‘altruistic’ justification for vaccinating children to protect at-risk populations.”
They added that even today it is unclear whether the vaccine prevents the spread of the virus and for how long it confers protection and noted that new variants “that may be more resistant to vaccination are popping up all the time.”
The letter continues, “We believe that not even a handful of children should be endangered through mass vaccination against a disease that is not dangerous to them. Furthermore, it cannot be ruled out that the vaccine will have long-term adverse effects that have not yet been discovered at this time, including on growth, reproductive system, or fertility. Children should be allowed a quick return to routine; the many tests and broad isolation cycles should be stopped, and no separation between the vaccinated and unvaccinated should be created in the public sphere. Vaccination of at-risk populations should be allowed, and under the almost complete vaccination of this population – it is possible to return to full routine (with periodic adjustments) even in the presence of COVID-19 virus.”
“Therefore, we fear that at this point in time, there is under-reporting of side effects. Moreover, a causal link between events – if any – will only emerge in due course, as more and more events of a certain type accumulate. For example, if there is a serious health event that happens to 12 young people a year in Israel (ie – an average of 1 per month), while the vaccine also causes this serious event infrequently, it will take many months until it is clear that there is an increase in the incidence of the event, and that there is a connection between the vaccine and its appearance.”
“Do not rush to vaccinate children as long as the full picture is not clear. Coronavirus disease does not endanger children, and the first rule in medicine is, do no harm. The full picture is expected in many months, and possibly years. Moreover, one must wait for such documentation not only from Israeli data but from global data. In this context, it is worthy to add that black box warnings – about severe or life-threatening side effects – accumulate months and years after drug approval, due to the fact that severe but rare toxins appear, naturally, only over time.”
“We believe it is not appropriate to impose the inconvenience of vaccination on the pediatric population, where coronavirus is not dangerous, especially at this stage when the efficiency, in the long run, is not at all clear. Pediatrics in Israel is one of the best in the world, and pediatric intensive care – above all. It is extremely rare for a child to die of a viral disease, and this can happen, unfortunately, as a result of various types of viruses. We do not think it is right to manage private life and public health policy as a result of an ongoing fear of a viral illness that is very rarely liable to harm our children’s lives. ”
“In view of the fact that the vaccination of the vulnerable population reduces hospitalizations and mortality from Covid – we believe that the negative effects of the virus will be much smaller when the majority of the at-risk population is vaccinated, as begins to appear to be the case in the country, and this without the need to vaccinate children,” they explained.
“We believe that our children should be allowed to return to the routine of their blessed lives immediately, and should not be vaccinated against Covid-19. Asymptomatic children’s tests, which have no clinical significance but cause widespread indirect damage, and the mass isolation cycles in education frameworks, should be stopped immediately. It should be emphasized to the public that even vaccinated people can be infected and infect others, and that the same rules of conduct apply to everyone without connection to vaccination status. We must stop pointing the finger of blame at the unvaccinated, and we must stop violating the rights of the individual. We must immediately stop all forms of exclusion and separation between people in the public sphere.” |
I totally agree with this. Even if it were 💯 proven that the only side effects of the vaccine were sore arm and a few days of feeling flu like symptoms -- even then it would be morally problematic to vaccinated kids when those minor side effects would be worse than the actual disease for most of them.
We shouldn't be asked to harm our children just so that Grandma and Grandpa can feel a bit safer! Let Grandma and Grandpa keep social distancing and mask wearing if they don't feel safe enough to be in public with unvaccinated children!
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amother
Brunette
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 10:17 am
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Old people driving have hit and killed small children they didn't see. Why not ban all non essential workers from driving? Why is "if it saves even one life, it is worth it" always a one way street -- children being asked to sacrifice their quality of life for the elderly, and never the other way around?
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amother
Brunette
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 10:20 am
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And btw, I am pro-vax in general. I even bought an extra vaccine (Meningitis B) for my kids when they were babies that wasn't included in the standard vaccines -- because Meningitis causes death and serious disability in children and I wanted to protect them from that. I don't feel the need to protect my children from Corona. I wish there were a vaccine to protect my children from selfish old people though!
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Crookshanks
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 12:52 pm
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I didn't read the article but I'm not so excited about getting the vaccine. I'm nervous about it's effect on fertility. I'm probably not going to take it until I am forced to by the govt.
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Zus
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 1:26 pm
| Crookshanks wrote: | | I didn't read the article but I'm not so excited about getting the vaccine. I'm nervous about it's effect on fertility. I'm probably not going to take it until I am forced to by the govt. |
There is no connection whatsoever with fertility.
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amother
Apricot
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 1:47 pm
| Zus wrote: | | Would you like my professional opinion? |
Yes can you share your opinion again, especially in light of all the information and opinions people are sharing that do not support this vaccine.
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Supermom#1
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 1:50 pm
| Zus wrote: | | There is no connection whatsoever with fertility. |
Just on this site alone, there are a few threads where women report that their periods are all messed up following Covid vaccine.
No connection, right? I know, I know.
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leah233
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 1:54 pm
I don't deny the possibility of there being risks in the Corona vaccine that are being hidden from us. In fact I'll say straight out that they probably are.
Even so I still think the risk of not getting vaccinated is bigger than the risk of getting the vaccine.
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Supermom#1
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 2:28 pm
| leah233 wrote: | I don't deny the possibility of there being risks in the Corona vaccine that are being hidden from us. In fact I'll say straight out that they probably are.
Even so I still think the risk of not getting vaccinated is bigger than the risk of getting the vaccine. |
Depending on age and if there's a pre-existing condition, of course.
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Laiya
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Mon, Apr 12 2021, 5:50 pm
| Zus wrote: | | There is no connection whatsoever with fertility. |
It is not possible to make such a statement at this point in time, before phase 3 trials have been completed.
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