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S/o Furious -Babysitting Bubbe
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 5:22 pm
I’m just stirring the pot now.

The thread about the DD in shidduchim who’s baby brother got hurt on her watch, has IMHO gotten beyond heated and insane.

What do you lovely ladies thing if instead of watch a little brother, Bubbe, maybe with a touch (or generous helping) of dementia had come for YT and erev YT, food needed to be cooked, work or household things needed to be done, and Bubbe needed to be watched because she is no longer a responsible adult and can wander off or do dangerous things.

Does DD have a responsibility to watch her grandmother? Help in the kitchen while Mom is tending to her mother (what if it is her mother in law)?

How does the responsibility play out?
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exaustedmom




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 5:25 pm
It's a hard one. I suppose she can ask the daughter what is more comfortable for her to do. But even if the daughter is amenable to helping Bubbie, there will be posters yelling that she is Bubbifying her and never consented to her bubby being born and so on.
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amother




Iris
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 5:28 pm
This one's complicated. I'd sooner say yes to helping in the kitchen while you manage your mother or MIL. Do not give the job of managing her to your dd without her ok, and if/when you ask, watch her very carefully as she answers. Helping out Bubby in this way is gut-wrenching, and sometimes actually impossible. I was given this job as an older high school girl because my mother had to work, and my parents apologized the next day. I would only give the job to a dd who actively wanted it and if I have seen that it works for her to be doing it.
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tp3




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 6:01 pm
Bubby needs a hired experienced aide. It is so hard to babysit someone with dementia. I would not ask it of a teenager.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 6:31 pm
Please. Don’t get me started.
Put bubby in a supervised environment or hire an aide.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 6:50 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I’m just stirring the pot now.

The thread about the DD in shidduchim who’s baby brother got hurt on her watch, has IMHO gotten beyond heated and insane.

What do you lovely ladies thing if instead of watch a little brother, Bubbe, maybe with a touch (or generous helping) of dementia had come for YT and erev YT, food needed to be cooked, work or household things needed to be done, and Bubbe needed to be watched because she is no longer a responsible adult and can wander off or do dangerous things.

Does DD have a responsibility to watch her grandmother? Help in the kitchen while Mom is tending to her mother (what if it is her mother in law)?

How does the responsibility play out?


I don't get the question. The mother is supposed to take care of Bubbe, of the little brother, of all the little kids, while cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, bringing in parnossoh and make herself available to her husband needs. All the while, the older children should be sitting back, relaxing, shmoozing with their friends on the phone, in order to recuperate from their jobs.

Once the mother is ready to collapse, or does collapse, then the community needs to step up to the plate and offer her chesed. All the while the older children are doing their fair share by taking care of their own laundry, cleaning up after themselves, and making sure they get to utilize all their off hours from work for themselves.

Another possible option is that the parents should spend their spare resources, or go into debt, to hire a babysitter for their children or a bubbe sitter (or a chef and cleaning ladies). It doesn't matter that the reason mommy can't do it all is because she is working mom. A working mom who has undertaken a job to ensure that the adult children in her house have all their needs, plus their extras met. A more important concern is that the adult children shouldn't have to extend themselves a bit outside of their comfort zone, cause otherwise they will become parentified and exhausted for life.

I guess they do have a point. The older daughters should definitely be relaxing every spare minute they have. Because as soon as they get married and start having a family of their own, they are expected to be superwomen.
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amother




Cyclamen
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 6:53 pm
Zehava wrote:
Please. Don’t get me started.
Put bubby in a supervised environment or hire an aide.


Umm, she's coming to to them for Yom tov
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amother




Bone
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 6:57 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I don't get the question. The mother is supposed to take care of Bubbe, of the little brother, of all the little kids, while cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, bringing in parnossoh and make herself available to her husband needs. All the while, the older children should be sitting back, relaxing, shmoozing with their friends on the phone, in order to recuperate from their jobs.

No one said that.

The mother and the father are a team. Together they need to earn a living, raise their children, and do the housework, as well as continuously work on their marriage.

If a Bubbe needs to be taken care of, the parents talk with any siblings they have about how to best take care of Bubbe. If the parents can't take Bubbe in then sometimes Bubbe is placed in nursing care, or hired help is brought in.

The older kids have school work to do, social activities (for teens), and adult children have their own schooling, jobs, spiritual lives, and dating lives to worry about. They can help out but they shouldn't be forced into a caregiver or parent role.

Quote:
Another possible option is that the parents should spend their spare resources, or go into debt, to hire a babysitter for their children or a bubbe sitter (or a chef and cleaning ladies). It doesn't matter that the reason mommy can't do it all is because she is working mom.

If there are two incomes and they are not managing to make ends meet then they need to rethink their finances and lifestyle, and make some changes. And yes being a working mom often means paying additional expenses such as child care, cleaning help, or more take-out or frozen food.

Quote:
I guess they do have a point. The older daughters should definitely be relaxing every spare minute they have. Because as soon as they get married and start having a family of their own, they are expected to be superwomen.

Yes, and if the daughters burn out they might ch'v use birth control or not have as many children as will give their mommies nachas. They might also not have the emotional ability to properly parent their children, because they are burned out and exhausted from raising their mother's children for so many years.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:01 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I don't get the question. The mother is supposed to take care of Bubbe, of the little brother, of all the little kids, while cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, bringing in parnossoh and make herself available to her husband needs. All the while, the older children should be sitting back, relaxing, shmoozing with their friends on the phone, in order to recuperate from their jobs.

Once the mother is ready to collapse, or does collapse, then the community needs to step up to the plate and offer her chesed. All the while the older children are doing their fair share by taking care of their own laundry, cleaning up after themselves, and making sure they get to utilize all their off hours from work for themselves.

Another possible option is that the parents should spend their spare resources, or go into debt, to hire a babysitter for their children or a bubbe sitter (or a chef and cleaning ladies). It doesn't matter that the reason mommy can't do it all is because she is working mom. A working mom who has undertaken a job to ensure that the adult children in her house have all their needs, plus their extras met. A more important concern is that the adult children shouldn't have to extend themselves a bit outside of their comfort zone, cause otherwise they will become parentified and exhausted for life.

I guess they do have a point. The older daughters should definitely be relaxing every spare minute they have. Because as soon as they get married and start having a family of their own, they are expected to be superwomen.

Or perhaps mommy should only have as many kids as she can handle without collapsing or relying on her kids to do her work.
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amother




Slategray
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:02 pm
It's not an age appropriate task, plus I don't think it is respectful to the grandmother to have a young grandchild caring for them when they are in such a vulnerable state. It's different if it's her own adult child.
Certainly the teens can pitch in with household tasks in the kitchen, cleaning jobs, or errands, which will enable the parents to have more availability to care for the grandmother.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:04 pm
amother [ Bone ] wrote:
No one said that.

The mother and the father are a team. Together they need to earn a living, raise their children, and do the housework, as well as continuously work on their marriage.

If a Bubbe needs to be taken care of, the parents talk with any siblings they have about how to best take care of Bubbe. If the parents can't take Bubbe in then sometimes Bubbe is placed in nursing care, or hired help is brought in.

The older kids have school work to do, social activities (for teens), and adult children have their own schooling, jobs, spiritual lives, and dating lives to worry about. They can help out but they shouldn't be forced into a caregiver or parent role..


That's precisely what I said - help out. No one is arguing that children should be forced into a caregiver or parent role. But people seem very confused. They think that asking a child to help out during YT means that the child is being forced into a parental role.

Helping out on occasion or during the hectic season does not meet any criteria of a parental or caregiver role.

As for time, the teens have plenty of off days, and the adult children can spare some of their spare hours to lend a hand.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:05 pm
amother [ Bone ] wrote:
Yes, and if the daughters burn out they might ch'v use birth control or not have as many children as will give their mommies nachas. They might also not have the emotional ability to properly parent their children, because they are burned out and exhausted from raising their mother's children for so many years.


I'm sorry to have to say this, but if a daughter gets burned out by helping out on occasion or during the YT days, then there is an underlying problem that needs to be taken care of before she gets married.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:08 pm
amother [ Bone ] wrote:
If there are two incomes and they are not managing to make ends meet then they need to rethink their finances and lifestyle, and make some changes. And yes being a working mom often means paying additional expenses such as child care, cleaning help, or more take-out or frozen food.
.


If only life works exactly as one plans it. You know, as in extra expenses never cropping up, or someone loses a job and has to start elsewhere, or things snowballing out of their control. Not everyone is in a positions to change up their finances or alter their lifestyles to accommodate the balls that life hits them with.

If it were as simple and straightforward as you make it out to be above, our communities would be able to do away with half of our organizations.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:12 pm
Zehava wrote:
Or perhaps mommy should only have as many kids as she can handle without collapsing or relying on her kids to do her work.


What happens if things were going exceedingly well in her 20s and early 30s and she was able to handle a good many children, only for things to change when she hit her late 30s? What should a woman do then if she finds herself in such a position and with very limited resources for any relief? Should we all limit ourselves to 3-4 kids max, just in case Hashem changes things up for a person?

In a perfect world, where we can plan everything out and we can see exactly what Hashem has in store for us in the future, such theories make sense. But outside of that, we can only do our best with what we know and have in the moment.
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amother




Iris
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:12 pm
Not having one of your kids take care of your mother or MIL is not about not giving her any responsibility. It's about the type of job it is. Just on a functional level, it's almost like having her be responsible for an autistic cousin her size who she doesn't have much experience with- it's really hard, she's unpredictable, and she can't be picked up and moved. Plus, she may be physically fragile, which causes even more problems. And she often won't listen to her granddaughter, and the granddaughter won't know how to assert authority because this is her grandmother. (Incidentally, the more Bubby is over and dd sees her mom dealing, the more Bubby gets used to routine and dd may become familiar with what's involved and might actually volunteer for a bit.)

And none of that includes what happens if dd ends up having to be involved in something that compromises Bubby's tznius, dignity, etc for dd. I have had to help both my mother and my grandmother in such instances (for example, Bubby forgets where she is when she's half-dressed and walks into what would be the bathroom in her apartment but is your living room.) I hated both. But the one with my grandmother when I was an older teen still haunts me today, thirty years later. Many girls who would resent being required to cook would do it happily as an alternative to taking care of Bubby. They recognize what their mother is doing, and would rather Bubby stay Bubby for them, instead of feeling like a child.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:17 pm
amother [ Iris ] wrote:
Not having one of your kids take care of your mother or MIL is not about not giving her any responsibility. It's about the type of job it is. Just on a functional level, it's almost like having her be responsible for an autistic cousin her size who she doesn't have much experience with- it's really hard, she's unpredictable, and she can't be picked up and moved. Plus, she may be physically fragile, which causes even more problems. And she often won't listen to her granddaughter, and the granddaughter won't know how to assert authority because this is her grandmother. (Incidentally, the more Bubby is over and dd sees her mom dealing, the more Bubby gets used to routine and dd may become familiar with what's involved and might actually volunteer for a bit.)

And none of that includes what happens if dd ends up having to be involved in something that compromises Bubby's tznius, dignity, etc for dd. I have had to help both my mother and my grandmother in such instances (for example, Bubby forgets where she is when she's half-dressed and walks into what would be the bathroom in her apartment but is your living room.) I hated both. But the one with my grandmother when I was an older teen still haunts me today, thirty years later. Many girls who would resent being required to cook would do it happily as an alternative to taking care of Bubby. They recognize what their mother is doing, and would rather Bubby stay Bubby for them, instead of feeling like a child.


I happen to agree with you. I do think that the children should help out elsewhere so the parents have the extra time to care for the grandparents. But, according to the mindset on this board, the older children should only be helping out where their own needs intersect. So such a setup wouldn't work either. If a child is expected to lend an extra hand because bubbe is here for YT, they may ch'v have to resort to birth control, have fewer children and won't be able to properly care for their own kids.
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amother




Lotus
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:19 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I don't get the question. The mother is supposed to take care of Bubbe, of the little brother, of all the little kids, while cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, bringing in parnossoh and make herself available to her husband needs. All the while, the older children should be sitting back, relaxing, shmoozing with their friends on the phone, in order to recuperate from their jobs.

Once the mother is ready to collapse, or does collapse, then the community needs to step up to the plate and offer her chesed. All the while the older children are doing their fair share by taking care of their own laundry, cleaning up after themselves, and making sure they get to utilize all their off hours from work for themselves.

Another possible option is that the parents should spend their spare resources, or go into debt, to hire a babysitter for their children or a bubbe sitter (or a chef and cleaning ladies). It doesn't matter that the reason mommy can't do it all is because she is working mom. A working mom who has undertaken a job to ensure that the adult children in her house have all their needs, plus their extras met. A more important concern is that the adult children shouldn't have to extend themselves a bit outside of their comfort zone, cause otherwise they will become parentified and exhausted for life.

I guess they do have a point. The older daughters should definitely be relaxing every spare minute they have. Because as soon as they get married and start having a family of their own, they are expected to be superwomen.


Thanks for the laughs!

You forgot that after mom has a baby (assuming she's in her 9th month again, because isn't everybody?) she still may not ask her kids, adult or otherwise, to lift a finger to help out with the new baby, pitch in with the clean up that mom is too exhausted to get to now because, you know, she gave birth yesterday, and mom shouldn't dare ask her own siblings or friends if they can watch her toddler for an hour in the afternoons, or help out in some other way, because well, none of these people asked her to have a baby and really, she shouldn't be having another one until she is 100% capable of assuming all her full responsibilities the moment she hops off that delivery bed.

After all, she chose to have this child. She must be ready for it NOW!
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amother




Turquoise
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:24 pm
I think this whole ridiculous argument boils down to how much children “owe” their parents help. Sorry, but part of raising children with good middos is teaching them the concept of chesed and hakaras hatov and yes children should help! How much, in what capacity? That’s up for debate, certainly a child shouldn’t be running the house on her own, but she should help. What’s age appropriate? Also up for discussion, watching a younger sibling absolutely yes, I think changing a diaper is a job primarily for parents, watching a grandparent- depends on the child amd the level of dementia, etc. as others have said, let the teen decide if she’s comfortable or would rather help in the kitchen to free up her mother. But there is no greater investment in a child’s future than teaching them derech eretz, empathy, hakaras hatov, and destroying the nauseating sense of entitlement this generation is growing up with. I am boggled how many posters think children shouldn’t be responsible to help. Nauseating.
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amother




Foxglove
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:51 pm
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
I think this whole ridiculous argument boils down to how much children “owe” their parents help. Sorry, but part of raising children with good middos is teaching them the concept of chesed and hakaras hatov and yes children should help! How much, in what capacity? That’s up for debate, certainly a child shouldn’t be running the house on her own, but she should help. What’s age appropriate? Also up for discussion, watching a younger sibling absolutely yes, I think changing a diaper is a job primarily for parents, watching a grandparent- depends on the child amd the level of dementia, etc. as others have said, let the teen decide if she’s comfortable or would rather help in the kitchen to free up her mother. But there is no greater investment in a child’s future than teaching them derech eretz, empathy, hakaras hatov, and destroying the nauseating sense of entitlement this generation is growing up with. I am boggled how many posters think children shouldn’t be responsible to help. Nauseating.


It is called the 'me generation' for a reason.
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amother




Iris
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:56 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I happen to agree with you. I do think that the children should help out elsewhere so the parents have the extra time to care for the grandparents. But, according to the mindset on this board, the older children should only be helping out where their own needs intersect. So such a setup wouldn't work either. If a child is expected to lend an extra hand because bubbe is here for YT, they may ch'v have to resort to birth control, have fewer children and won't be able to properly care for their own kids.


I actually disagree. There's a different dynamic for a dd who is asked/told to help mom than for a dd who is asked told to help mom so that she can help HER mom. There's a mutual respect, a feeling of "We're in this together. I'm not asking you to do something to make my life easier- it's so I can do something for MY mother (or MIL). We're each in our role." Along with "I'm working hard to give you the easier job, even if it's not easy." It gets felt differently. As long as it's not abused.
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