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S/o Furious -Babysitting Bubbe
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amother




Black
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:57 pm
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
I think this whole ridiculous argument boils down to how much children “owe” their parents help. Sorry, but part of raising children with good middos is teaching them the concept of chesed and hakaras hatov and yes children should help! How much, in what capacity? That’s up for debate, certainly a child shouldn’t be running the house on her own, but she should help. What’s age appropriate? Also up for discussion, watching a younger sibling absolutely yes, I think changing a diaper is a job primarily for parents, watching a grandparent- depends on the child amd the level of dementia, etc. as others have said, let the teen decide if she’s comfortable or would rather help in the kitchen to free up her mother. But there is no greater investment in a child’s future than teaching them derech eretz, empathy, hakaras hatov, and destroying the nauseating sense of entitlement this generation is growing up with. I am boggled how many posters think children shouldn’t be responsible to help. Nauseating.

Exactly. What exactly is wrong with children helping their parents? That they'll work hard? What is wrong with working hard? And yes if a parent needs help, a child is obligated to help. It is not respectful for a child to be enjoying themselves, if their parent is in need of help. A child owes their parents, however a parent owes a child nothing.
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amother




Cyclamen
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:57 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
It is called the 'me generation' for a reason.


And after going through their teen years lounging on the couch, they get married and come on imamother complaining that their mothers are not continuing to serve them hand and foot. They are not getting financial help, a doona, the best room in the house for yt.
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WhatFor




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 7:59 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
A child owes their parents, however a parent owes a child nothing.


I think we've reached Poe's law levels here. Are you being satirical?
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:10 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I don't get the question. The mother is supposed to take care of Bubbe, of the little brother, of all the little kids, while cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, bringing in parnossoh and make herself available to her husband needs. All the while, the older children should be sitting back, relaxing, shmoozing with their friends on the phone, in order to recuperate from their jobs.


Nah.

The older kids are supposed to go to school and/or hold jobs. But when they're not in school or work, they're supposed to watch their younger siblings, and clean the house, and cook gourmet meals. They shouldn't rest on Shabbat, because chas v'shalom the kids' actual parents watch their kids.

Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It

Why is there no nuance in this group?

The home, and the kids, and parnassah, are all the primary responsibility of the parents. Period. Full stop. End of story.

That said, of course everyone in the home should help out. Do some household chores. Help younger siblings at times.

There's nothing wrong with a kid relaxing and having fun. That's what being a kid is all about. Same for a young adult.

There's nothing wrong with a parent asking an adult child to watch her sibling for a while. And nothing wrong with the adult child saying "can't do it right now, sorry" if she can't.

Just like there's nothing wrong with asking the kids to check the lettuce, or cut cucumbers. Or help build the sukkah.

But I wouldn't ask them to look after a grandparent with dementia.
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small bean




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:12 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Nah.

The older kids are supposed to go to school and/or hold jobs. But when they're not in school or work, they're supposed to watch their younger siblings, and clean the house, and cook gourmet meals. They shouldn't rest on Shabbat, because chas v'shalom the kids' actual parents watch their kids.

Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It Can't Believe It

Why is there no nuance in this group?

The home, and the kids, and parnassah, are all the primary responsibility of the parents. Period. Full stop. End of story.

That said, of course everyone in the home should help out. Do some household chores. Help younger siblings at times.

There's nothing wrong with a kid relaxing and having fun. That's what being a kid is all about. Same for a young adult.

There's nothing wrong with a parent asking an adult child to watch her sibling for a while. And nothing wrong with the adult child saying "can't do it right now, sorry" if she can't.

Just like there's nothing wrong with asking the kids to check the lettuce, or cut cucumbers. Or help build the sukkah.

But I wouldn't ask them to look after a grandparent with dementia.


Whys the grandmother different?

I think my kids would prefer that over checking lettuce.
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SixOfWands




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:20 pm
small bean wrote:
Whys the grandmother different?

I think my kids would prefer that over checking lettuce.


If grandma were just a tad forgetful, maybe.

But OP referred to "a generous helping" of dementia, with all that comes with that. The grandparent most likely will not recognize the grandchild, which may be frightening for even a young adult. There may be a loss of the ability to reason. Difficulty speaking, understanding, expressing thoughts. Acting impulsively. They may even need help using the restroom.
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amother




Teal
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:22 pm
I think a fine line is really being missed on this thread. I watched my grandmother with dementia as a late teen multiple times as per my parents wishes. My cousins NEVER DID ANYTHING for her. I spent yuntif and shabbos with her and my grandfather so my grandfather could go to shul. My cousins were scared whereas my siblings helped. There was some resentment towards the cousins and aunts/uncles who felt it wasnt their childs place to help the grandparents at all. I also spent a lot of time helping around the house being the older part of a large family. Looking back, we all agree it was absolutely crazy for me and my sisters to go for shabbos because it was no longer safe. I still disagree with my aunts and uncles who never asked my cousins to help or spend time with my grandparents because there is a very fine line which was missed and is being missed on this thread and often in real life.

Asking a child to help with a younger sibling on an age appropriate level isnt child abuse and isnt forcing them to be the parents and helping them work on their middos. A teenager can help make shabbos and yuntif without the mother being accused of being overworked. At the same time, a child isnt the mother and very few ppl hit this fine line.
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amother




Bergamot
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:23 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I’m just stirring the pot now.

The thread about the DD in shidduchim who’s baby brother got hurt on her watch, has IMHO gotten beyond heated and insane.

What do you lovely ladies thing if instead of watch a little brother, Bubbe, maybe with a touch (or generous helping) of dementia had come for YT and erev YT, food needed to be cooked, work or household things needed to be done, and Bubbe needed to be watched because she is no longer a responsible adult and can wander off or do dangerous things.

Does DD have a responsibility to watch her grandmother? Help in the kitchen while Mom is tending to her mother (what if it is her mother in law)?

How does the responsibility play out?


much much more complex than watching a baby brother.
this is comparing apples with peanut chews- no connection!!!
for one thing, even adults grapple with the concept of taking care of other adults- who were previously able to care for themselves.
Plus dementia is a complicated complicated situation that is unpredictable and uneven and confusing- even for experienced adults.
I would not put this on a 20 yr old.
comparing that with watching a baby brother is ridiculous.
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amother




Eggplant
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:23 pm
amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:
I'm sorry to have to say this, but if a daughter gets burned out by helping out on occasion or during the YT days, then there is an underlying problem that needs to be taken care of before she gets married.

THIS.
Goodness Gracious

(I didn’t read the other thread but kids can help a little and not just come home to be wined and dined IMO).
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:34 pm
amother [ Cyclamen ] wrote:
Umm, she's coming to to them for Yom tov

Why can’t she come with an aide?
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behappy2




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 8:41 pm
I think there should be a chinuch of cheesed. That means training kids to care about another person, open the door for someone, give up their seat for an older person, notice when a parent or spouse is exhausted and pitch in. This needs to be taught. Some children have difficulties that make it hard for them to learn this. Then we need to lower our expectations. My mother in law (wheelchair bound) comes to us for yomim tovim and I see the way my kids help her by brining her water to wash, getting her a tissue box. It warms my heart. This is a gift for them. I know someone who has great memories of helping her elderly grandmother who was living by her. Our kids only gain when we expose to the real life responsibilities, where they actually feel needed, as long as it is age appropriate and matches the nature of the child.
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amother




Lightgreen
 

Post Mon, Sep 13 2021, 10:01 pm
Children should help their parents with household chores. Yes this may even mean watching a younger sibling. Everything should be age appropriate and within limits of course. In the case of bubby it really depends on what the condition of bubby and what the tasks are. If bubby is of sound mind then the kids can keep them company and bring them things they need. Caring for a bubby that had Alzheimer’s or dementia can be traumatizing for children and helping them with bathroom or bathing duties is out of the question. Assigning children to hospital duty (I.e. sit in a chair and keep watch) is also not acceptable if grandma is at deaths door (true story!). Ladies let’s use common sense
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doodlesmom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 3:29 am
Hey people why isn’t anyone saying that mom isn’t responsible for grandma since it’s parentification, and she never asked for her mom to be born etc.
When does the daughter need to help out mom? What’s he magic number?
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amother




Slategray
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:19 am
doodlesmom wrote:
Hey people why isn’t anyone saying that mom isn’t responsible for grandma since it’s parentification, and she never asked for her mom to be born etc.
When does the daughter need to help out mom? What’s he magic number?

Age appropriateness here is key.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:23 am
I hosted my parents for Y"T for many years after my mother had Parkinson's, and at a certain point I told my father I could not manage without an aide.

And it definitely was never my childrens' responsibility.

But presambly if OP is the one who shoulders the responsibility for having Bubbe, then it's OP's job, not her DD's. However, of course OP would have a realistic plan, and would discuss with family members in advance how that would play out, and what help she would be needing, in order to make it work.
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amother




Gardenia
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:28 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
Exactly. What exactly is wrong with children helping their parents? That they'll work hard? What is wrong with working hard? And yes if a parent needs help, a child is obligated to help. It is not respectful for a child to be enjoying themselves, if their parent is in need of help. A child owes their parents, however a parent owes a child nothing.


I was my mother's slave. I heard this argument 1000 times, and after doing all the work in the house for years while my mother rested, this type of rhetoric falls very flat with me.

A child did not ask to be born, and they do not owe their whole selves to their parents. In a normal healthy relationship the child will help of their own accord. I am grateful to have this relationship in my life.

It's when there are unrealistic expectations and huge focus on obligations of the child that things go South.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 8:28 am
doodlesmom wrote:
Hey people why isn’t anyone saying that mom isn’t responsible for grandma since it’s parentification, and she never asked for her mom to be born etc.
When does the daughter need to help out mom? What’s he magic number?

Mom is choosing to host grandma. No one is bringing grandma into her house and saying “here, you are hosting her”.
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doodlesmom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:47 am
Zehava wrote:
Mom is choosing to host grandma. No one is bringing grandma into her house and saying “here, you are hosting her”.


So let’s remind mom that she not only doesn’t have to but shouldn’t host grandma since it’s hard on her, and she has no obligations to her. She only has obligations to her kids who she chose to have.

Let grandma figure her own life out without burdening anyone. Who does she think she is.


Sorry but there needs to be some middle ground here. While children aren’t parents maids etc, anyone taking from a system should an appropriate point start giving within the system. Life is a give and take.


Last edited by doodlesmom on Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:49 am
doodlesmom wrote:
So let’s remind mom that she not only doesn’t have to but shouldn’t host grandma since it’s hard on her, and she has no obligations to her. She only has obligations to her kids who she chose to have.

Let grandma figure her own life out without burdening anyone. Who does she think she is.

Whether she should or shouldn’t that’s on her to decide
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doodlesmom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Sep 14 2021, 9:52 am
Zehava wrote:
Whether she should or shouldn’t that’s on her to decide


When do you stop being so opinionated as to how much a child does for a parent? At 18 you’re quite aggressively claiming that the child owes nothing….and then?
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