S/O - Modern vs Modern Orthodox, let's break it down (again)

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:46 pm

simcha2 wrote:

The parameters for the yeshivish world don't always have to do with halacha (what color shirt, hair covering type, nail polish etc), so it is hard to take any of the parameters seriously. So, if because a man wears a striped shirt he is out, but cheating on his taxes (or molesting his children), he isn't, how can those be real parameters?

You seem to be missing the distinction that a couple of us are trying to make. People's hypocrisy is not the point. All people are hypocritical in one way or another, and some are obnoxious while also being hypocritical. No derech has the monopoly on that.

But no one who identifies as yeshivish goes around informing others that the yeshivish derech condones cheating on taxes or that his rav poskined that child molestation is okay. The reaction of individuals and the community when such behavior is made public is embarrassment.

On the contrary, many MO posters appear to be so non-judgmental that they won't even condemn behavior that is clearly outside both halacha and any legitimate hashkafa based on Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz.

Some examples from this thread:

Quote:

The rules are the same for everyone but not everyone chooses to observe them. I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that MO communities in general are open to allowing anyone to "join" the community even if they aren't fully observant. For example, my small OOT shul has many members who drive on Shabbos. They are not "lite" or LW, they just aren't fully SS! They are still welcome as full members of the community.

Quote:

I haven’t asked a Rav a shailah in years. I haven’t had the need to. Asking about lifestyle choices is not even something MO communities think about.

Quote:

. . . the only way I can explain it is that tzniut just occupies much less of a primary status in our culture. This is true across the spectrum of MO, though more so among the more LW communities.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that anyone who wants to identify as MO is welcome to do so - even if they are not fully halachic observant.

simcha2 wrote:

Does it mean that there are people who are not observant who self identity as MO, sure. But that doesn't 1) effect my own practice of halacha or 2) make MO hashkafa invalid.

Surrounding ourselves with people who are openly non-observant certainly does affect us. Whether you want to refer to Tehillim, Chazal, or other sources, we are constantly reminded to be careful in choosing the people with whom we surround ourselves.

As for MO hashkafa, I'm thoroughly confused. Several posters made the point that they do not ask advice regarding hashkafa or lifestyle decisions. So what exactly is MO hashkafa, and from what is it derived? How do people apply it if no one talks about it?

simcha2 wrote:

I'm fine with a lack of gate keeping because I'm confident enough in my own derech. I like that in my oot, one shul town there are women who cover their hair with a sheital, and some with a tichel, and some with a hat (and only in shul), and we can all daven together and our kids can all be friends together and we all love the same Hashem. Why would I want any of them excluded?

Here's the part where we get into having one's cake and eating it, too.

All of us can agree that most people are hypocritical to one degree or another and that most people commit acts that are contrary to their derech, whether intentionally or not.

But when MO-affiliated Jews both publicly and repeatedly express ideas or engage in behavior that is contrary to anything connected with Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz while claiming support from their community, no one should be shocked that other MO Jews and Modern Orthodoxy itself comes under suspicion.

As far as I'm concerned, that may be a fair trade-off. I believe there is room for a bigger tent than most RW groups allow. But then, no one in the big tent can claim offense at potentially being regarded as less stringent.

The best argument that MO posters on Imamother could make is, "Yes, we know that welcoming everyone regardless of observance and hashkafa means that our own observance is sometimes doubted, but we're willing to put up with that in order to maintain a big tent."

Alas, that never seems to be the argument that is made.

Plonis

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 12:49 pm

Having read through this whole thread with interest, I appreciate the hashkafa much more.

Still, although there are definitely outliers, someone who identifies "yeshivish" or "chassidish" is bechezkas kashrus in terms of kashrus, meaning I can make a safe assumption that in the vast majority of cases they are keeping a high standard of kosher.

The same cannot be said for someone who identifies as MO, either for the reason that they identify as such but don't actually practice, or because they consider much of my standard of kashrus to be chumra. So before I would eat their food, I would need to ask to find out, at the risk of sounding insulting.

The way someone dresses may be cultural or chumra, but it does allow us to make a pretty good guess as to where they identify themselves. In the case of MO, the lack of "uniform" has some advantages, but does mean that others can't easily assess their likely level of observance or knowledge.

So that changes the "chezkas kashrus" I assume on others, rightly or wrongly. I assume that someone who dresses tznius will understand Jewish lexicon and respects halacha overall, and I would be correct in the vast majority of cases. Someone dressing non-tznius I will assume to be non-observant and ignorant of halacha, and again I would be correct in the vast majority of cases (non-Jews skewing the results significantly of course). I don't know if there is a way around this.

simcha2

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:00 pm

Fox wrote:

But no one who identifies as yeshivish goes around informing others that the yeshivish derech condones cheating on taxes or that his rav poskined that child molestation is okay. The reaction of individuals and the community when such behavior is made public is embarrassment.

Here's the part where we get into having one's cake and eating it, too.

All of us can agree that most people are hypocritical to one degree or another and that most people commit acts that are contrary to their derech, whether intentionally or not.

But when MO-affiliated Jews both publicly and repeatedly express ideas or engage in behavior that is contrary to anything connected with Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz while claiming support from their community, no one should be shocked that other MO Jews and Modern Orthodoxy itself comes under suspicion.

As far as I'm concerned, that may be a fair trade-off. I believe there is room for a bigger tent than most RW groups allow. But then, no one in the big tent can claim offense at potentially being regarded as less stringent.

The best argument that MO posters on Imamother could make is, "Yes, we know that welcoming everyone regardless of observance and hashkafa means that our own observance is sometimes doubted, but we're willing to put up with that in order to maintain a big tent."

Alas, that never seems to be the argument that is made.

I think that this is the disconnect. From the outside that is exactly how it looks. That the yeshivish world has no problem with people cheating on their taxes (for example), because such behavior doesn't "disqualify" one from being considered frum.

In fact, when a bunch of people were arrested for exactly that the reaction here wasn't embarrassment, it was that the government is antisemitic.

The same for molestation. Of course no one is saying it is allowed, but there is a strong culture of covering up, of victim blaming. Of crying lashon hara and moser.

So, that by your standard should make all Jews suspicious of yeshivish people are their commitment to halacha.

When posters here wrote how they can't get their kids into school because their husband doesn't wear a black hat during the interview (as was in a thread this week), by your reckoning everyone else should think that yeshivish people prioritize narishkeit over ahavas Yisrael.

But people who point and say, look MO accepts people who are lacking in observance and therefore modern Orthodoxy itself is suspect. Or all people who identify as MO are suspect, are either hypocrites or hugely lacking in self awareness.

If people wanted to say, I don't affiliate with MO because I disagree with its stance on Torah u'mada, or think that the fact that kollel isn't idealized is wrong etc, kol hakavod.

But those who claim up 1) define modern Orthodoxy when they aren't part of it, 2) claim that is too open tent because not everyone is as observant as ideal or 3) because there is a fundamental lack of focus on halacha, are misinformed and willfully blind to the same issues in their own community.

Are there issues in modern Orthodoxy, for sure. But they aren't the ones you seem to think they are.

essie14

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:15 pm

simcha2 wrote:

You said this far better than I ever could.
👏 👏

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:17 pm

tp3 wrote:

I don't care to gatekeep anyone else either but if my child had a sleepover or a bday party invite in a home which is lax in halacha or we were invited for shabbos to people who don't believe Torah is Divine, of course I wouldn't want to be naive to these things.

What do you do practically if your child is invited over by a classmate, since there is a range of observance within the school?

As a MO who considers Halacha very important, Center-right wing MO. I can tell you that it doesn’t bother me if my kid goes to a sleepover at a family that is dati lite or lax or Conservadox. I don’t know about secular because that has not happened and kashrut might be an issue. I don’t keep my kids away from homes or children who are not “as frum” as I am - at least not because they’re not as frum as I am.
What could possibly happen if my nine year old played playmobile with a kid whose parents don’t believe that the Nach is divine?
We just had a parents meeting at my daughter’s school on my left side sat a woman who I would have thought was sefardi chareidi had I seen her walking down the street and to my left say a mom in tight jeans and a visible tattoo on her neck.

keym

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:21 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

But would you ask more information about the family's observance level if your child was invited to sleep over on Shabbos?

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:33 pm

keym wrote:

But would you ask more information about the family's observance level if your child was invited to sleep over on Shabbos?

You know I think there is a big divide between MO in America - especially out of town America and in Israel.
In my world, people who identify as dati or MO are shommer Shabbat and kashrut (even if due to ignorance or disregard they might fudge here or there - but I suspect the same is true for yeshivish and chassidish world), so no I wouldn’t investigate. But maybe if I lived in a more mixed community in the Diaspora I would. I just don’t know.
When I was a tween my Bnei Akiva group was invited to spend Shabbat in Ashdod with another Bnei Akiva group there. We were sent to different homes in pairs.
We came from an Ashkenazi bubble where everyone was frum but apparently the community that hosted us were really more traditional Sefardi. The homes were completely kosher, everyone went to shul, but not all the homes kept Shabbat like we did.
The mother in the family I was staying by washed the floors on Shabbat afternoon. I was shocked.
But do you know what? I don’t think it was a bad experience and I’m happy we were sent there.
I’m happy we were introduced to a way of life that was outside our bubble and outside our comfort zone and I hope I didn’t offend my hosts by being shell-shocked.
I wish my kids also have the opportunity to see the genuine emunah and traditional observance I experienced that Shabbat.

tp3

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:34 pm

simcha2 wrote:

I think this is kind of an odd way of seeing things. It isn't only in the ultrafrum world that people protect their family even if a family member has done something terrible.
That doesn't mean the community condones it or that the rabbis say it's a good thing to do.
There are MO child molesters and those who cover up for them as well. Are you saying that these people are no longer part of the MO community, not welcome in MO schools or shuls? That only yeshivish communities still consider them frum?

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 1:55 pm

simcha2 wrote:

Unfortunately, this argument is not really as good as you think.

One of the core principles of the yeshivish derech is the concept of relying on daas Torah -- not just at the individual level, but at the community level. According to several posters, this is not a value of MO hashkafa.

A very legitimate problems in many yeshivish communities is that "the Abishter is in charge." That expression is used to mean that there is no community leadership, no daas Torah whose word is the final say. This is particularly a problem "in town," where someone who doesn't like a rav's ruling can easily move to a different geographical community with a different rav.

And a very legitimate complaint against many people who identify with the yeshivish derech is that they either fail to ask or ignore daas Torah.

But when daas Torah both exists and is respected, the problems you describe are minimized.

I remember being shocked, for example, when Imamothers began complaining about the cover-up of molestation. Chicago has had a frum organization dedicated to educating about CSA since the late 1980s, and Rabbi Fuerst, sh"lita, the Agudath Israel posek, created a special beis din to hear s-xual abuse cases. In addition to himself, he included a MO rabbi who is also a clinical psychologist, and locally prominent rabbonim from the MO spectrum and from Chabad. When he told Telshe Yeshiva along with everyone else to cancel night seder for the kollel so that men could attend an asifa on the problem, it was done without question.

Of course, the presence of Rabbi Fuerst in Chicago isn't a wonder drug. People still do bad things. The advantage is that daas Torah is in charge. If a child doesn't have a school, Rabbi Fuerst will intervene. Defying daas Torah is a step very few people in the community are willing to take.

But if the guidance of daas Torah isn't something your hashkafa demands in the first place, you are relying solely on people's own senses of right and wrong. Just as any attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client, anyone who poskins his own shailas needs a new rav.

simcha2 wrote:

But people who point and say, look MO accepts people who are lacking in observance and therefore modern Orthodoxy itself is suspect. Or all people who identify as MO are suspect, are either hypocrites or hugely lacking in self awareness.

Nobody has said this. What concerns me is that Modern Orthodoxy never defines itself. There never seems to be a point at which anyone steps up and says, "This is not who we are." It's all very vague and ambiguous.

simcha2 wrote:

But those who claim up 1) define modern Orthodoxy when they aren't part of it, 2) claim that is too open tent because not everyone is as observant as ideal or 3) because there is a fundamental lack of focus on halacha, are misinformed and willfully blind to the same issues in their own community.

No one has done any of these things, either. In fact, despite begging, we can't get anyone to define Modern Orthodoxy. It's a legitimate question to ask when the tent becomes so big that it can no longer sustain a relationship to Orthodoxy. As for halacha, we have multiple posters telling us that halachic observance is not required to be part of Modern Orthodoxy.

My own rejection of Modern Orthodoxy has less to do with any of those factors and more to do with the fact that most MO people (though not necessarily rabbonim) I've encountered see reliance on daas Torah as a negative rather than a positive.

chanchy123

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:03 pm

Fox wrote:

I think the only people who find it necessary to define the parameters of Modern Orthodoxy are Yeshivush posters. We’re ok with having a clear Derech even though many or some people claim to subscribe to the Derech week in actuality rejecting some of its clear tenets (like adherence to Halacha).
We also think that if you are yeshivish and you personally know us, and we say that Halacha is important to us and that we follow Halacha diligently in every aspect of our lives, you should believe us.

simcha2

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:07 pm

Fox wrote:

You seem to have missed the opening post.

I do see reliance on da'as Torah for non-halachic issues as more of a negative than a positive. It is a wholly recent (last 100 years or so) development, on balance, in my opinion has led to some serious issues.

It had led to rigid conformity and idea (expressed in this thread) that somehow people should be "disqualified" for not conforming.

Once the color of someone's shirt becomes the way we judge someone's character and relationship to Hashem we have left Torah ideals far behind.

So while one rav may handle cases admirably, plenty of others will sweep things under the rug, and because there is the idea that the rav isn't just an expert on halacha, but all areas of life, people aren't comfortable speaking out.

So yes, my rejection of yeshivish hashkafa, despite the fact that my observance is probably identical, is largely based on the adherence to da'as Torah and the idealization of kollel.

Fox

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:33 pm

simcha2 wrote:

You seem to have missed the opening post.

No, but there have been a lot of contradictory posts.

simcha2 wrote:

I do see reliance on da'as Torah for non-halachic issues as more of a negative than a positive. It is a wholly recent (last 100 years or so) development, on balance, in my opinion has led to some serious issues.

It had led to rigid conformity and idea (expressed in this thread) that somehow people should be "disqualified" for not conforming.

Once the color of someone's shirt becomes the way we judge someone's character and relationship to Hashem we have left Torah ideals far behind.

At least in my experience, daas Torah is not behind increased conformity. Rather, conformity is the low-hanging fruit for which some people reach instead of relying on daas Torah. It should be noted that conformity is not a dirty word. There is value in certain levels of conformity, but like any midda, it can be overdone.

simcha2 wrote:

So while one rav may handle cases admirably, plenty of others will sweep things under the rug, and because there is the idea that the rav isn't just an expert on halacha, but all areas of life, people aren't comfortable speaking out.

I have honestly never seen daas Torah sweep something under the rug or refuse to deal with it. But not every shul rav represents daas Torah. In fact, an enormous problem that affects all of us is that we simply don't have enough individuals who are able or willing to assume this mantle and responsibility.

I'll leave it at this; I've made whatever points I intended to make, at least to the best of my ability. As I said in my first post, I have nothing but respect for those who are genuinely committed to a life based on Torah U'Madda or Torah im Derech Eretz, and I assume that MO people fall into that category until they tell me otherwise.

Chayalle

Thu, Oct 14 2021, 2:52 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

I'm yeshivish and I have RWMO relatives, and I know that they keep to the Halachos of Kashrus. I eat in their homes, no questions. So does my yeshivish DH. We know they keep Kosher, period.
However, if I met someone who is MO and didn't know them, I can't say I would assume that they diligently follow these Halachos, because of the broad spectrum of people who consider themselves MO.