Is there or isn't there a shortage of moros??? + update :)

amother

Mint

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:21 pm

pause wrote:

I definitely think the decreased stigma attached to good frum girls going to college is responsible for the lack of teachers. Teaching used to be the default job of girls who want to avoid the pitfalls of an office (way before all girls offices were common) and the dangers of college. If you were a good girl, you wanted to teach. Nowadays, you don't need to teach and you can still be a great girl. No one is looking down at you for wanting to do something "more" so they went for it. In fact, you're better because you can support a DH in kollel whereas you cannot do that when you teach.

And now it's 15-20 years later and we're blaming the low salaries. It's actually the combination of a number of factors that led us here.

It's not so long ago the frum magazines wouldn't say use the word "college" in certain contexts. They'd say a girl was taking a "course" or "in class."

amother

Mauve

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:33 pm

pause wrote:

This is interesting because it is literally the history of women in the job force but a generation or more later.

In my mother’s generation all the brightest women became school teachers in the New York City public system because it was the acceptable career path and also because the hours worked for women with children. Literally almost every one of my friends had a mother who was a public school teacher and even they were a bit ahead of the curve because many women didn’t work from their generation.

None of their daughters became teachers. We all became lawyers, doctors or got advanced degrees like an MBA. This was actively encouraged by our parents who didn’t want us to settle like they had done. My mother’s true love was science and she would have loved to work in some type of research. 🥲

pause

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:42 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

This is interesting because it is literally the history of women in the job force but a generation or more later.

In my mother’s generation all the rightest women became school teachers in the New York City public system because it was the acceptable career path and also because the hours worked for women with children. Literally almost every one of my friends had a mother who was a public school teacher and even they were a bit ahead of the curve because many women didn’t work from their generation.

None of their daughters became teachers. We all became lawyers, doctors or got advanced degrees like an MBA. This was actively encouraged by our parents who didn’t want us to settle like they had done. My mother’s true love was science and she would have loved to work in some type of research. 🥲

Fascinating!

The additional factors of the hard work, lack of support from the school, and low salaries contributed to the overall attitude of "Why do we need to settle for this?"

ImmaBubby

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:42 pm

I’m not sure how long it takes for a Morah to attain the status of “qualified”, and I suspect it’s different for everyone.
The crisis is real.
Also, since covid, teachers have gotten lots of shevach for the crucial roles we play- and we play many, many roles. We are applauded for our professionalism these days, not as much our mesirus nefesh.
Well thanks for the accolades- can I have a raise to I can make as much as a Rebbe who is half my age with 1/10 of my experience?

amother

Mauve

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:50 pm

pause wrote:

Fascinating!

The additional factors of the hard work, lack of support from the school, and low salaries contributed to the overall attitude of "Why do we need to settle for this?"

I don’t think the low pay is thst applicable to New York City teachers in the public school system as they can earn a relatively good salary especially if they take additional courses towards a masters.

Also the benefits are quite good as my parents were both Civil Service workers and so they retired with financial security although they were also frugal and so saved quite a bit especially when the kids were grown. They had more money in retirement than when they were working and supporting a family. 😂

Also a factor for being Civil Service is that it was more of a straight meritocracy.

pause

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 3:56 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

My second paragraph was in reference to the OP and frum teachers.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 4:46 pm

amother [ Topaz ] wrote:

Schools don't want to hire sem graduates because they are 'unexperienced' but how can anyone get experience in the field if they aren't allowed thru the door?
The experienced teachers get burnt out because they are not being paid so well so some of them leave and then the schools complain that that they have no teachers...
The schools are doing it to themselves.

In general people don't just start "teaching" with absolutely no experience.

If you major in education part of your credits are in the classroom as a student teacher. You then generally also acquire additional hours in the classroom - this is in addition to taking courses in how to teach. And one would have observation during the earliest years of teaching in order to both evaluate and provide input for improvement.

Obviously a person who just got their teacher's license and is accredited is not as skilled as someone who has a few years of experience in the classroom but it is ridiculous to think that a person who essentially just graduated from seminary is qualified to teach any subject.

But it seems as though people feel like teaching is essentially an unskilled profession and that anyone who knows something about the subject matter is qualified to teach it.

amother

Mint

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 4:49 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

True for the most part the teaching classes I took in sem were a joke.
Maybe things have changed but based on my friends' similar experience and from what I hear via the grapevine the only sem that really seems geared to prepping girls to actually teach is Bais Yaakov Intensive.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 4:56 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I am assuming that this would be the equivalent of a college freshman who took an introductory course in Education?

Not being harsh on the system but there is no way that a 19 year old "girl" (used deliberately) who took a course in education should be teaching. At most she could be hired as an assistant to help a qualified teacher in the classroom.

It really still underscores that people do not think that teaching is a skilled profession. It is like having an LPN with one year of education become the Charge Nurse and replace Registered Nurses with professional degrees and licenses and think that the same quality of medical care is possible.

I think people who cut hair or give a manicure are required to have more classroom hours AND more supervised training. And then often the hair cutters are not hired to actually cut hair in a good salon but they are hired as assistants to the experienced stylists - they might be allowed to blow dry someone.

amother

Mint

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:13 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I agree with you.
From what I remember hearing about the Intensive program, they at least tried to make things more hands on. Those girls had the most classroom observations, on a regular basis, and they were paired up to tutor struggling students on a regular basis. And they were taught things like how to set up a lesson plan.

Basically what I vaguely remember from my sem classes was the teacher telling over anecdotes from her teaching career years ago and her belief that anyone motivated enough could be a successful teacher. And we went to observe in classrooms maybe once every few weeks (in Israel so it wasn't really geared for coming back to teach in an American school) and a model lesson we did in front of our own classmates. Which basically was just standing in front of the room and explaining a pasuk.

amother

Mint

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:27 pm

amother [ NeonPink ] wrote:

yes there is a shortage

No, we dont want to have someone back from seminary in charge of a classroom

Prefer a married lady with classroom teaching experience

returning from seminary should join as an assist to a master teacher and learn from her.

Our classrooms deserve experienced!

Married isn't necessary imo. Just look at Sarah Schnirer (I recently read the fascinating book abt her by Naomi Seidman that someone recommended here) and she married for the first time at 28 and (based on her own private journal) only because she felt she didn't have any options (she said straight out bec she wasn't prettier and didn't have much money) but she was unhappy even during her engagement and left him a few times till finally getting a full divorce a couple years later). She wasn't married, didn't have kids, and also didn't have experience before opening her first school....

And just because someone is an assistant for a couple years, does she need to wait till getting married before she can be a full fledged teacher? Let's say she's 30 and still single.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:28 pm

I have been teaching high school English for twelve years. I went to seminary (which didn’t prepare me for teaching at all), was an assistant for one year (which basically taught me how NOT to teach), and then started teaching. In those years, I completed my BA, earned two MAs, and a doctorate.

I don’t think it’s fair to make blanket statements about any school or any teacher because they vary so widely. But I think, over all, there’s way too much teacher-centered learning (with an emphasis on lectures and memorization) and not enough student-centered learning (with an emphasis on student choice, critical thinking, collaborative learning, and metacognition). The former is not worth your tuition dollars; the latter is. But the latter is also much harder to do successfully—most seminary grads are not equipped to do so.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:31 pm

amother [ NeonPink ] wrote:

Why married as a requirement. How is that an actual qualification.

Is it just because you assume that any woman who isn't married is young and inexperienced?

Because it is theoretically possible to be an older single with great experience.

Just because you have children doesn't mean that you are qualified to teach in front of a classroom - parenting isn't the same skill set as a professional teacher has.

Again it seems to devalue education as a learned and skilled profession.

Maybe it is because I knew so many "professional" teachers who took advanced courses and had real expertise. One of my aunts was a reading specialist - a little fanatic on the subject of phonics. LOL

But she almost had her PHD in the subject matter and years of classroom experience.

amother

Strawberry

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:43 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Even public school teachers are relatively underpaid considering their credentials 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️😂😂

Relative to what?
Most other professionals with masters ? Like who? Nurses ? Social workers ? Physical therapists?

Professionals have steady career but there is a pay ceiling. It’s a high ceiling low floor situation. My sister in law has an MBA and 20 years experience kn high level finance posistions. She can (and has ) made hundreds or thousands a year. Or she can get laid off (no union ) and make zero for a year … she’s done that too.

amother

Strawberry

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:45 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

What bothers me the most WRT totally inexperienced teachers is a 19 year old new graduate teaching 17 year old high schoolers. I just can’t see it going well… maybe I’m wrong

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Dec 26 2021, 5:48 pm

amother [ Foxglove ] wrote:

https://matzav.com/stepping-up-at-convention-torah-umesorah-launches-daring-25-million-project-for-moros-salaries/

There's a beautiful heart-rending song that goes along with this, called Stand Up for the Morah by Torah Umesorah that is sung by Benny Friedman.

It’s a beautiful song and a beautiful sentiment.
I’m very grateful that people get it.
It’s just frustrating that mosdos don’t get it, or at least don’t translate the idea into the tangibles that will actually KEEP their staff members.