Shelled out my bathroom by mistake

Rubies

Mon, Jun 20 2022, 9:28 pm

amother [ Snowdrop ] wrote:

Why would her leaving it unlocked make her responsible for the worker who messed up the address/entrance?

It could be a factor from a Torah viewpoint. I don't think it makes her responsible but it could be it has an impact.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jun 20 2022, 11:16 pm

amother [ Gardenia ] wrote:

I also find it hard to understand, but apparently if you benefit from it, you may need to pay for it.

https://businesshalacha.com/en.....ted=1

"Generally, when someone derives benefit from another person’s work that is usually done for pay; then, even if he never agreed to pay for that service, he is required to pay. He cannot absolve himself by saying, “You did it for free, because I never told you to do it” (Shulchan Aruch, C.M. 246:17 and 264:4).

"But this is true only if there had never been a discussion prior to the benefactor providing the service, in which case this falls under the rubric of yored lesoch sdei chaveiro shelo b’reshus, a person who works in another’s field without permission, where Halachah dictates that he is required to pay for the work even if he never asked the person to do it (ibid. 375:1)."

Interesting information. What is to stop an unethical frum contractor from doing repairs/work without a contract or being asked and then forcing the homeowner to pay? Meaning- this is their mode of getting work: do lots of work and then forcing the owner to pay?

WitchKitty

Mon, Jun 20 2022, 11:20 pm

My parents had a room with a cheapy roof. When their neighbors built a porch on top, the rav said they had to pay a certain amount because they were benefiting from a better ceiling.
Even though they did not enjoy the building + having a porch above them. They enjoyed the ceiling and that was enough.
A rav might say you need to pay part of it. Unless your bathroom was new and you didn't get any benefit from it.
It's a fascinating question, please tell us when you get an answer.

twizzlers1

Mon, Jun 20 2022, 11:40 pm

Oh my gosh I'm so sorry! I guess I don't understand bungle of colony because I can't imagine a work or just going in and destroying the whole bathroom without double and triple checking with the owner. Like when do you have sent her pictures and a video making sure? Seems like it was his mistake if he didn't bother to double-check. Wasn't he in the house once before to give estimates? Something's just not adding up.

Rubies

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 2:29 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

There's probably a source for unethical people and how that changes the equation.

amother

Valerian

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 2:34 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

Nothing. Except that he'd lose his reputation and never get another job. We rely on that as a deterrent.

BadTichelDay

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 2:46 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

In my imagination, this opens the door to a host of nightmare scenarios. For an example, the paint of our house is peeling slightly. We don't mind. What if one day some bored painter comes by and repaints the whole thing on his own and then demands money? What if someone who owns a chainsaw decides spontaneusly that our trees need cutting? What if someone decides we need a second deck or a balcony and he builds it while we are away for the weekend? What if someone walking past decides that our car needs new tires or a roof rack?
Would I have to pay for them all??? Surprised

amother

Steelblue

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 2:55 am

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Nothing. Except that he'd lose his reputation and never get another job. We rely on that as a deterrent.

LOL I don’t think he needs another job. He’ll just keep “taking” jobs so to speak

amother

Gardenia

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 3:03 am

I'm not 100% clear on it (need to do more research, ideally learn through the sugya inside), but there is a concept of טול עציך ואבניך which may prevent the sly contractor from drumming up business that way.

ETA: For example, see Rambam Gezeilah V'Aveidah end of chapter 10:
https://www.chabad.org/library.....n.htm

Quote:

The following rules apply if a squatter enters a field belonging to a colleague without permission and plants trees there. If the field was one appropriate for trees to be planted, we evaluate how much a person would be willing to pay for trees to be planted in this field, and he collects this amount from the owner of the field. If this field is not suitable for planting, the squatter's improvement of the field should be evaluated, and he is judged at a disadvantage.

Moreover, if the owner of the field tells the squatter: "Uproot your tree and go," the owner's wishes are heeded. If the squatter says: "I want to uproot my tree," his wishes are not heeded, because uprooting trees weakens the fertility of the land.

So it is possible that the contractor can be told, "Strip your paint and go," or "Remove the balcony and go."

Genius

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 4:16 am

moonstone wrote:

"Shelled out?" I've heard of shelling out money, but not a bathroom. Is that a NY word for remodeling?

No. To shell means to remove everything inside. To leave just the walls. Op now has an empty room made up of beams.

amother

Lightblue

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 4:29 am

The way that I see it is that op has not yet benefitted from anything, this worker or neighbour had caused her damages at this point which most likely they will need to pay for the repair of the damages which is effectively the cost of remodel there is no benefit to OP that her bathroom was demolished she can’t use the bathroom now and that is the main point.
Unless the redecorating has started already we can talk about the benefit but from the OP it sounds like that isn’t the case.
Either way I’m very curious to hear how this plays out.

amother

DarkMagenta

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 4:45 am

twizzlers1 wrote:

Some places have rows & rows of identical units, so easy to walk into the wrong unit by mistake. It's also standard in some places to leave the units unlocked in the off season to give workers access when needed- this is when your stuff is locked up or taken back home.

imanotmommy

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 4:54 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

They can't necessarily charge the normal price they'd get for an ethical job. The benefit they're providing is value of new minus value of old. So if they replace something, they won't get paid the full amount of the new. And if they added something, the owners could say "take it back, I'm not paying"

ETA: they may not be able to charge for labor at all. for example: installing a new sink-you have to pay the cost of new sink minus value of old used sink. Not a great deal for contractors.

watergirl

Tue, Jun 21 2022, 5:16 am

Genius wrote:

A poor person.

A poor person can certainly apologize. That same poor person, who somehow found the money for not only a bungalow, but a remodel of the bathroom (rather than make due with the existing tiles, etc), can direct their remodel funds to their neighbor and make due this season with their current bathroom. Yes, I am very aware that the poor person could have inherited the bungalow or whatever, but this is all hypothetical. That poor person is still choosing to maintain a bungalow rather than sell it, and pay for utilities for two places at once and also all of the expenses that come along with owning a bungalow.

Last edited by watergirl on Tue, Jun 21 2022, 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total