Finance shaming VS Flaunting

ora_43

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:17 am

amother Acacia wrote:

And yet. I was just in Brooklyn and the average mother shopping in the grocery store on Thursday night and paying with their food stamp card was wearing SIGNIFICANTLY more jewelry than the women I know who not only owns a private jet but keeps it fully staffed 24 hour a day 365 days a year in case they want to hop on the plane.

Two rings on one hand = conspicuous consumption.

Private jet fully staffed 24/7/365 = classy and understated.

Scratching Head

This thread is starting to have a strong flavor of "things poor people do are trashy, things rich people do are classy."

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:25 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

I dont spend time but I see it in real life. In my neighborhood one husband took out a loan to buy his wife a 30k piece of jewelry bec her friend just got it and she had to have it. Another guy asked for kimcha dpischa bec his wife spent their cash on a fur coat bec her neighbor got one

This is the problem. Why are people trying to keep up with other people? Who cares?
Sometimes people have to do things because of health issues. Like the $300 shoes are the only ones that accommodate orthotics. Or a wig is for someone who has alopecia and needs a completely custom one so they don’t stick out like a sore thumb. Some clothes are made to accommodate feeding tubes. Certain brands of strollers are better for carrying medical equipment.
Want to know what the cashiers in the grocery store say when a woman dripping in jewelry and pushing an expensive stroller thinks when they pull out snap card? Yes, sometimes it’s a person who’s fallen in hard times but it’s a tremendous chillul HaShem to flaunt getting paid under the table or to trick insurance companies.

sequoia

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:34 am

amother Indigo wrote:

Loll this is so so untrue
The high fashion industry is a multi multi billion dollar industry. I promise you the frum community is not solely supporting them!

Check out the amount of non Jews burying hundreds of thousands of dollars into Hermes every year just to maybe be given the privilege of being offered a birkin bag!

Look at that, you completely misunderstood my post.

Of course frum people aren’t the only ones buying high fashion items.

Frum people are the only ones wearing them to the grocery store and the bus stop.

In Little Women, Jo and Marmee lecture Amy about showing off, and remind her that Laurie (who is *immensely* wealthy and as old-money as they come) is always modest and understated. Read the scene, it’s very instructive.

amother

Azalea

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:40 am

I think it's also so easy to have that expensive look. I have a few Hermes scarves which I paid $8.89 on ali. There are the most expensive bags for a fraction of the cost which people can easily attain for a few dollars.
We should all know that there are people who are more financially privileged than us. And it's OK.
It's probably the part that people feel intimidated by those people so to feel better they'll call them flaunting.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:51 am

amother Azalea wrote:

Hermes style scarves. Not Hermes scarves.

amother

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:51 am

amother Azalea wrote:

Hermes scarves bought on Ali are 100% copies, not the real deal.
I have no problem with copies but please don't mix up genuine brand articles with the fake.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 10:54 am

sequoia wrote:

I’ve read little women many times. That’s not the point. Take a walk down 5th ave, go to LA, heck just open up Tik tok! The very wealthy are incredibly ostentatious
Obviously there is class to the understated brands. Nobody is denying that. But if you think frum people are the only ones wearing brand names to the bus stop, I have a bridge to sell you

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:04 am

sequoia wrote:

Flaunting your wealth by wearing flashy jewelry and expensive clothes and sheitels in everyday life (like to the grocery store) is exclusively a frum thing. Look at how Mark Zuckerberg and his wife dress.

In the 19th c. it was definitely a thing to display your wealth through clothes, and since frum society is still culturally in many ways in the Victorian Era…

Ahem, mark zuckerberg does not wear wal mart tees.
But why not talk about Kylie Jenner, Jeffrey star and all the Tik Tok stars that the youth idolizes?

Though I agree that the secular world has casual clothes for casual activities while in the frum world there is never a time to dress casually. It is a little old fashioned and conservative that woman always have to look made up and bejeweled.

seven-up

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:20 am

Ok so flaunting is not the best thing to do, admitted. But there is a difference between living according to your means and flaunting. Flaunting to me is intentionally announcing to the world whether through social media or dressed to the nines while grocery shopping that you are wealthy and hoping to grab attention or be the trend setter or influencer. If one is wealthy they naturally will live in accordance with what they can afford. Our avos were all wealthy. I can't even count how many shiurim/divrei torah I've heard, all the way back to high school, that would talk about how the avos were wealthy. The torah and chazal all talk about the animals they owned and the fancy foods they served- think tongue Avraham served to the melochim which can parallel the current eating out at fancy restaurants or trendy foods. Or they brought their sheep to graze in the fields which might parallel owning a tesla today. They had money and the world knew the avos were wealthy. The imahos dressed nicely and looked like daughters of Hashem, not shmattas. The torah talks about how beautiful and dignified they were. If they were living in today's world they would not enter the grocery store with half their hem down, runs in their stockings, wearing a button down shirt thats open between the buttons and their messy wigs or half on tichels. But they also wouldn't be dressed to the nines dripping in diamonds. They would look put together, neat, updated. There's a healthy balance between flaunting and representing who you are. They all had maid servants and plenty of land which parallels today's cleaning ladies and large homes. But they didn't cause jealousy- ok there weren't other Jews to make jealous- but even the world at large was not jealous of them because they found the proper balance and didn't do it for attention or just to be the trend setter or feel better about themselves which is the key here! I can't claim how to solve the problem of today's kids needing to feel like they have what they next kid has, that will take a lot of problem solving and just as we have solved other issues over the generations hopefully this can be worked on. But there is not an issue with living according to your means if you have the means!

lamplighter

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:45 am

My issue is the children. It's hard on the kids to be in classes with rich kids and with the pseudo rich kids. I can not care about any of this (and I dont) but my kids just want to be like everyone else. Unfortunately the level of regular has skyrocketed and its hard on us parents who are not wealthy and have no desire to pretend to be.
Grown ups just need to grow up but kids and teens, it's not easy on them.

ShishKabob

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 11:56 am

amother Azalea wrote:

This is what I was thinking of. The regular people on the street are wearing nicer costume jewelry and that's just the result of todays available market.
You can look all glamoured up for just a few dollars.

And everyone spends money where they choose to spend it. Hence the private jets and so on.

However, I do think it's wrong to flaunt all the good that Hashem gave you. There is definitely a strong lack of tznius going around these days in regard to that.

bat1

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:33 pm

lamplighter wrote:

well dear, the time to teach it to them is now, when its shoes and easy stuff. G-d grant them a good life, but what will you do if they want to get engaged and married "cuz all their friends are" when they want kids "cuz all their friends have" when they want a good job, nice house, health, wealth, good kids etc etc...

The best thing we can do is to teach our kids to be individually happy with their lot.

And to the one who wrote about being neat and self respected. 100%. yes, A jewish girl/woman should looks neat and presentable. the brand you wear doesnt influence that look.

amother

Watermelon

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:08 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Why would that be the issue?

Either the woman who bought it full-price really wants that specific dress, in which case either

- she's spending the same amount of hours on it, just work-hours instead of internet-search-hours, or

- she has so much money that $1,000 is nothing to her

In either case, she's not morally superior, just richer.

Or, she cares less about fashion - in which case why is she spending $1,000 on a dress? At least the lady scouring the internet for a better sale actually wants the thing she's buying.

There's nothing wrong with buying something you like, though hopefully you have a sense of modesty, in the real sense of the word.

What's morally superior is not obsessing over THINGS. It's just a dress. Buy it or don't buy it. Giving it hours of your time, in person or online, means something. How we allocate time is a major indicator or our values.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:39 pm

bat1 wrote:

Everyone is alloweda go on whtever vacation and eat whatever steaks make them happy, its just the posting and sharing that is causing the issues.

But what if that’s part of enjoying what they have? Again, I think it’s about who you are telling, not what you are telling. When you post on a semi public forum like Facebook or Instagram or even here, you are not directing your post or comment to one person. Many different people, from many different walk and stages of life, see. We would ever be able to post anything if we had to worry about every single person who would see it. In real life you need to know your audience, and be aware of what you say to whom. I think it’s different when posting in a semi public forum. Obviously we need to be aware, but we can’t just never post anything because someone might be hurt or offended.

amother

Acacia

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:41 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Two rings on one hand = conspicuous consumption.

Private jet fully staffed 24/7/365 = classy and understated.

Scratching Head

This thread is starting to have a strong flavor of "things poor people do are trashy, things rich people do are classy."

Clearly you haven’t been grocery shopping in Brooklyn recently if you think I am referring to two rings on a hand. There was at least two rings on each hand, including a large diamond ring, an eternity band and some other blingy stuff) stacked bracelets on one wrist. And a tennis bracelet on the other. Big earrings with stones. And some necklaces. It was blinding.

And ya a private jet is over the top. Completely. But It’s not something they ever talk about or something most people see. Like they don’t land in their driveway or drop their kids off at school on their jet. And when they fly to Israel on it. I mean if you see them coming on or off their jet, you are in the private aircraft area coming on or off your own jet. It’s not like the people flying coach can see them. I just know about it because they gave us a ride once and it came up about the staff. Their plane is technically a company plane. It’s not privately owned. Not sure if that’s better or worse. But also per the annual income it’s a smaller percentage than most people spend on their car.

Anyway… I just gave the private jet as an example of the kind of money these people have.

Like I don’t think too many imamothers have private jets roaming around in hangars. Although. Who know.