Frustrated by software mfr's unresponsive attitude.

Choirmistress

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 4:11 pm

Are you as frustrated as I am with Microsoft’s lack of more than one even partially usable, functional Hebrew font? As long as your surname is NOT Weiss, please get the company’s typographic design team to fix the 50+ spacing, shape, nikkud, and other problems by adding your voice to mine on their Feedback Hub. Let them know that there are hundreds of Hebrew font users out here who may be, as I am, losing a minimum average of $100 per work day in lost productivity and income. These font flaws have been brought to Microsoft’s attention repeatedly for over a year. They are still ignoring my request to invite me to be personally and directly involved in working with them to correct these glitches. Their typographic design team may know fonts, but they obviously do not know Hebrew. I know both, but they are still ignoring my offer of input. Their most informative answer on the Feedback Hub has been “Working on it”. One stipulation if you offer them your own input: Please do not mention where or from whom you got the idea to voice your opinion. That would just have negative repercussions for me. Thank you in advance.

scruffy

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 4:13 pm

I've never had any issues with Microsoft Hebrew fonts... what are the issues that you are having?

Choirmistress

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:11 pm

Hi, Scruffy.
I posted you a reply several minutes ago but do not see it on the screen below your initial reply. It was to the effect that the glitches I have experienced with five or more of the few Hebrew fonts MS makes available number at least fifty, mostly to do with letter shapes/proportions (ht/wdth), and precision of nikkud placement other than precisely centred under/beside the letter.
I also mentioned that if you provided me with your email address, I could PM you a copy of the double-sided letter detailing those 50+ flaws and glitches, but if you go online to MS' Feedback Hub, you should see that as as attachment to my Hub contributions going back about a year.
May I ask which "generation" of MS Word you use that allows you to download and use various Hebrew fonts with no problem? Is that perhaps my only problem?

amother

Lime

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:13 pm

I've downloaded plenty of fonts online and had no issue with most of them

scruffy

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:14 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

I don't generally use nekudos so perhaps that's the reason for this discrepancy.

I have downloaded and used Hebrew fonts successfully with Office 2013 and 2019.

Choirmistress

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:36 pm

Thanks, Scruffy.
That may be useful. I shall look into how compatible and up to date my MS Word version is.
Much appreciated.

sequoia

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:38 pm

What does mfr stand for? embarrassed

Choirmistress

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:49 pm

Hi, Sequoia.
It's a standard, common abbreviation for "manufacturer". You'll find it in any dictionary.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:56 pm

If the manufacturer is unresponsive then use a different software. There are so many options nowadays.

amother

Aster

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 5:59 pm

I'm surprised at your reaction.

1) Microsoft is not a font foundry and never have been. They have purchased some fonts which they bundle with their computers.

2) Microsoft is a gargantuan company and if you look online, they have far bigger software issues than nikkud spacing which are relevant to many and urgent to fix, including major security holes and bugs causing serious damage.

3) Those producing professional Hebrew materials and are concerned about exact location of nikkud are not usually using free fonts in Microsoft Word. Professional software and professional fonts allow for much more precision, including of trop and other characters.

sequoia

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 6:22 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Hi, Sequoia.
It's a standard, common abbreviation for "manufacturer". You'll find it in any dictionary.

Yeah, that makes more sense LOL

Choirmistress

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 6:56 pm

Hi, Aster.
Did you think I don't know MS is not a type foundry? Or that there are professional font producers out there?
I need at least one workable, proportional, traditional font that looks like Drugulin; has precise nikkud positioning; and can work in MS Word files.
Suggestions other than pestering MS on their Feedback Hub until they tell me again that my posts sound loud and threatening?

amother

Dahlia

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 7:11 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Microsoft is not going to change their font for you.

https://support.microsoft.com/.....564c1

amother

Aster

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 7:41 pm

Precise typography is not an intended feature of Microsoft Word. In your case, it may be the font or it may be the software. Neither are planning on changing it for you, unless perhaps you're offering to pay for their time.

I suggest instead that you try downloading a trial of Adobe InDesign, the industry standard for page layouts, which now includes full support for Hebrew. If the default spacing is not sufficient for you, either try buying a font specializing in full nikkud, or manually adjust the kerning on your own, a normal feature on this type of software.

Alternatively, download an application which allows you to directly edit font files, and see if you can get your free font to work the way you want.

Again: Microsoft Word is NOT the right tool for what you want. They are not going to change it, no matter how much you complain, especially since a different tool already exists (albeit for a price). Honestly, they repeatedly ignore even valid complaints about issues that affect far more users.

In general, unless there is a wide demand for a feature, software companies have no incentive to produce it. Any feature requires many hours of programming work, testing, ongoing support, and the possibility of introducing new bugs.

Tl;dr don't waste your time on Microsoft Word. Use InDesign and if that font doesn't work, pay for one that promises to.

amother

Aster

Tue, Feb 28 2023, 7:51 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Suggestions other than pestering MS on their Feedback Hub until they tell me again that my posts sound loud and threatening?

If others are telling you that your posts sound loud and threatening, they probably do.

When making a request, you should consider:
- if your request is reasonable
- if they are obligated legally or morally to address your issue
- if they are the correct address for your request
- if you understand the effort required for them to address your request
- if you are compensating them appropriately for that effort
- if the timeframe you are requesting is realistic
- if the way you are asking is non-aggressive and appropriate

In this case, none of the above apply.

It is not reasonable to ask them to make their basic page formatting program operate like high-level production software. They have no obligation to improve it to an individual's desires. They are not even the right people if the issue is with a font. You have no idea what kind of time it would need to make any changes. You are not offering them any compensation for adding a significant software feature. And even if it was in their list of future enhancements, it may not happen for quite a while.

So yelling at them about it is wrong and potentially a Chillul Hashem.

Choirmistress

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 12:18 am

Quote:

Sorry, Aster, but the only possibility you listed that does not apply is the fifth. Why should I compensate Microsoft for not doing what they are supposed to be doing -- offering fonts that actually work?
My request IS reasonable, esp. considering for how long I have been pointing out the problems to them.
Yes, they are obligated, since they have for years been advertising their fonts as usable in their WP programs.
Yes, I had the correct address.
Yes, I understand the effort required for them to address my request, as I have repeatedly offered to collaborate with their font design "experts" since I know both typography and Hebrew.
I have never requested a time frame within which I have expected them to act on the 50+ problems I have repeatedly pointed out. I simply think that over a year is more than realistic.
And yes, the way I have been asking has been non-aggressive and appropriate.

Thanks to all those who suggested finding and downloading fonts by other than Microsoft. I think that is just what I may end up doing.

amother

Aster

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 1:01 am

Choirmistress wrote:

Dear Choirmistress,

The fonts work. Not to your standards, but they work.

Nowhere in their program description does it state that their fonts will produce print-quality material that satisfies even the most nitpicky typographer.

If the komatz is under the lamed, it works. It might not be centered precisely, but it's there and the word is legible. If the chirik is under the yud, it works. Yes, you'd prefer that it line up with the downstroke of the yud, but it's underneath it and the word can be read correctly.

So the font IS usable. Not perfect, but plenty usable.

You clearly have no concept of what Microsoft is. They don't HAVE font design experts. They licensed and distribute existing fonts. You may know typography and Hebrew, but I don't think you know programming or how a massive operation like Microsoft works.

The vast majority of Hebrew fonts (and this is not limited to those bundled with Microsoft Word) would not meet your standards. Because honestly, only those printing professional seforim are so particular about the exact position of trop and nikkud. And those printing professional seforim are NOT using free fonts on Microsoft Word. They are ready to invest so their product meets their standards.

You may think that over a year is realistic, but if you look beyond your personal nitpicks and browse some consumer feedback on Microsoft Windows, you'll see just how many major and pressing issues they need to be addressing. You are assuming (and I believe wrongly) that they designed their fonts in-house and continue working on them. You have no idea if their typography engine could even handle a more complicated font with that many ligature pairs, you have no idea how difficult it would be to update it, how complex it is to address kerning pairs and custom ligatures in OpenType fonts for all of the potential letter combinations, and how much programming hours cost.

Although you have a hard time hearing this, Microsoft provided exactly what they promised.

Here is a list of some free fonts with Nikkud, but be aware that many of these also have imperfect positioning. I'm also linking a font editor so that you can correct any issues you find.

Free fonts: https://opensiddur.org/help/fonts/

Free font editor: https://fontforge.org/en-US/ (I've used it for some minor font edits)

And a link to Adobe InDesign's free trial, so you can see how a program designed to handle typography and contextual alternates works: https://www.adobe.com/products......html

I used to only use free things, but I've learned since that if you want a certain standard, you may need to pay for it.

Choirmistress

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 11:57 am

Thanks, Aster, for the additional info.
Is there a way I can attach, to a(n answering) post, my two MS Word files comprising my double-sided letter and the font sample sheet illustrating the problems?
Because Hebrew may be working for a lot of the ladies on this website, but not for me except in Times New Roman.

amother

Aster

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 12:02 pm

Why don’t you try your font of choice in another program and see if the problem persists?

Which font are you having issues with? If it is a font without full nikkud support, you may just need a different font, even if you prefer this one.

Perhaps try downloading one of the fonts I linked and see if they work well enough for you. Full nikkud is not a feature in most fonts.

cbsp

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 12:51 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

You can take a screenshot of the file and upload it as an image.