DD complains about classmates middos

amother

Wed, May 10 2023, 7:24 am

We are BTs which is relevant because we are different than the rest of the families in my DDs class and don’t have a lot of the upbringing that classmates families have. No yeshiva or seminary in our past. No Rabbis in the family. She goes to an OOT school and she is disappointed by how the other girls in her class openly judge non Jews and non religious Jews and even each other, especially her at times. She says they correct her when she does or says something “wrong” but it sounds like they do it in a judgey way. She feels like her teachers encourage this by not correcting their behavior because as DD says from them “they are just g0yim”. And she complains that half her friends use the term “schvartzah”. She has friends but they are all of this group and she knows if they talk about other people they talk about her when she is not around. She equates this to what “religious Judaism” is really like and is getting turned off. I do not know how to correct this. Telling her to be the bigger person will not work. This is a hard enough concept for adults plus she has already been trying to look past these behaviors for a while now.
Any ideas?

amother

Wheat

Wed, May 10 2023, 7:54 am

amother OP wrote:

Many people make this mistake. They believe in a value system and push it hard at home, to the point that the child uses that value system as a lens to judge others. If you push the point hard at home that people are wrong for judging non Jews and irreligious Jews and using the term schvartza, even though you are correct, she will focus on this and get turned off. You would like her to be a religious Jew who has your value system but you are winning the battle and losing the war.

Live by example and lightly tread when it comes to these things and you will not risk her sacrificing religion for your value system. Talk up the good points of religious Jews, and there is so much good to talk about, without focusing on the negatives in any way.

There are plenty of things I can criticize about my sons classmates from vaping to behavior. Even religious Jews aren’t born with perfect middos. I choose to tread lightly and not make a big issue of things I feel even strongly about, and let my personal behavior model my values while stressing to my son that everyone isn’t perfect but there are plenty of good things about them to focus on.

zaq

Wed, May 10 2023, 8:37 am

Is there a different school with a population that is more tolerant and diverse, maybe more like the camp to which you'll be sending her? You must be doing something right if your dd has this concern for middot and has been making an effort to overlook the slights, but you can't expect her to endure feeling dissed forever.

I disagree completely with amother wheat. The school environment sounds toxic, is making your dd unhappy, and is leading her to reject observant Judaism. It's not your democratic values that are doing this, but the skewed religious elitist values of her school and classmates. IMHO it would be far better for her to attend a school that's somewhat less strict religiously but more tolerant of religious diversity. The religiosity she can get from home, but no amount of love, devotion and religious example from you will make up for being in a crowd with bad middot. By the teen years, friends are a much stronger influence than parents. Do we not daven daily for the KBH to distance us from bad people, bad friends and bad neighbors? Get your dd away from those bad friends.

amother

Leaf

Wed, May 10 2023, 8:43 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

That makes no sense to me.

I grew up in an OOT community but the reverse - 90% of the school was BT and I was the 10% that was FFB. nobody knew the difference except the kids whose parents made sure they knew the difference. So the few FFB elitists, and to the contrary, the few who kept pulling the "well my parents are BT so...."
If you tell your kid they're different then they'll find proof of it.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, May 10 2023, 8:50 am

Try talking to her teacher, it may not help but it certainly can't hurt and naybe the teacher will suprise you and be helpful in encouraging a better atmosphere / behavior in the class.

Also, while your daughter may be right, she is also judging the other girls and you may want to help her be more dan l'kaf zechut for her own sake. This isn't a criticism of your daighter, just a tool to help her stop focusing on others behavior in a way that bothers her.

amother

Steel

Wed, May 10 2023, 10:08 am

How old is your DD?

I would explain to her, on her level, that being judgy is a normal human trait and that most people's sense of judgment develops as they get older. It develops substantively, to be less simplistic and less black/white, as they gain life experience and abstract knowledge. And it also develops in terms of whether and how they express that judgment: time, place, tone, or at all.

At the same time, people's sense of judgment is part nature and part nurture, a lot of it is culture and upbringing. Children mimic their peers and their parents and older siblings. They evolve based on what they're exposed to. If her classmates are much more sheltered and insular, they simply won't know much about non-Jews, black or white, and are likely to say childish or ignorant things about them. Just like college educated people in the secular world may say ignorant things about stuff they're unfamiliar with like frum life.

amother

Wed, May 10 2023, 5:53 pm

Yes I’m aware she is judging them for being judgmental. However she has gone all year practically with holding it together not to complain and recently there was a final straw and she came to me to vent. She wasn’t about to hear “yeah but you’re judging them now too…” talk.
We don’t point out to her that she has had a different upbringing (it’s just too obvious). I mentioned it in OP to provide context.
I’m hoping today she will feel better and maybe have a different view.
I’m not against considering different options for school but no matter what she is with this group another year. Also, teen girls are tough under good circumstances.
And to me, I don’t allow the term non jews to be used in a derogatory way and never black. Don’t care that it is seems as culturally benign by some people.
However I can see how the is difference can be interpreted by her which is an interesting point I didn’t think about.

amother

Wine

Sun, May 14 2023, 5:20 pm

amother OP wrote:

chances are there are one or two girls who (are subtly very influential) and are setting the tone for the entire class.
If you would examine each grade individually, you would see a sub-culture that stems from the two to three most influential girls. This happens among neighbors, among Sisters and sisters-in-law etc....and other group settings...

amother

Jean

Sun, May 14 2023, 6:11 pm

Actually a lot of this attitude comes from the teachers. I didn’t bring up my kids to talk negatively about ‘non jews’ or ‘shvartzes’. I just told them that we hold ourselves to a high standard. The teachers are presenting this attitude to girls (I have gathered this information from multiple schools in two states) and the girls pick it up, process it, and spit it back. Not sure there’s anything to do about it except reiterate your values. One of my girls even came home saying the N word. I informed them that if they think saying that in public is a good idea, they are very, very mistaken.

amother

Celeste

Wed, May 17 2023, 1:47 pm

The problem is that she/you are framing this as a frum girls issue - a religious, when really this is a teen girls issue.

In every society there is a group of "mean girls" who are catty, judgmental, and gossipy. Because she is frum it is coming thru in religious things - but its just typical teen girl behavior that they will outgrow and be mortified of. It comes from the lack of confidence and insecurity that most teens experience and outgrow, combined with typical back and white teen thinking (which your dd is experiencing in a different direction)

Yes, they should have better middos, and believe me they know they shouldn't be behaving like that, but when someone doesn't feel good about themselves the best way to feel better is to knock everyone else down.

It is also crucial for her to understand that they way the religious survived intact is by building walls and protecting itself from the outside world. Lack of exposure tends to lead to judgement - and when you combine that with the historical persecution by the non-Jews and the current rise in anti-Semitism specifically from the black community ,it is not surprising that immature, unsophisticated teens see all the others as less then.
It is not a torah attitude, but it is understandable, just like its understandable for young black men to feel hatred towards all police officers, when only a tiny minority actually pose a threat to them.
As these girls grow up they will develop a more nuanced and compassionate attitude towards people outside of there little "box".

Its not a middos problem - its an age problem. If she says that her secular family friends aren't like that - point to the ways they show black and white thinking and judgment - in different directions. It is normal to be narrow minded as a teen, even if the narrow mindedness expresses itself in the form of "you must accept everybody" it is still narrowmindedness.

amother

Oxfordblue

Wed, May 17 2023, 1:53 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

The problem is that she/you are framing this as a frum girls issue - a religious, when really this is a teen girls issue.

In every society there is a group of "mean girls" who are catty, judgmental, and gossipy. Because she is frum it is coming thru in religious things - but its just typical teen girl behavior that they will outgrow and be mortified of. It comes from the lack of confidence and insecurity that most teens experience and outgrow, combined with typical back and white teen thinking (which your dd is experiencing in a different direction)

Yes, they should have better middos, and believe me they know they shouldn't be behaving like that, but when someone doesn't feel good about themselves the best way to feel better is to knock everyone else down.

It is also crucial for her to understand that they way the religious survived intact is by building walls and protecting itself from the outside world. Lack of exposure tends to lead to judgement - and when you combine that with the historical persecution by the non-Jews and the current rise in anti-Semitism specifically from the black community ,it is not surprising that immature, unsophisticated teens see all the others as less then.
It is not a torah attitude, but it is understandable, just like its understandable for young black men to feel hatred towards all police officers, when only a tiny minority actually pose a threat to them.
As these girls grow up they will develop a more nuanced and compassionate attitude towards people outside of there little "box".

It’s not a middos problem - its an age problem. If she says that her secular family friends aren't like that - point to the ways they show black and white thinking and judgment - in different directions. It is normal to be narrow minded as a teen, even if the narrow mindedness expresses itself in the form of "you must accept everybody" it is still narrowmindedness.

Very intelligently put.