Hype About Potching

amother

Peach

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:00 pm

Redbird wrote:

OP, I absolutely disagree with potching, yet I agree with your skepticism about it being abuse no matter what.

There seems to be a strong need do define abuse and put it in a box, and that's why there's a debate if potching is abuse.

But there isn't a simple definition, because abuse is not really a behavior, it's a pattern of behaviors.

Like if a kid is potched on all the time, for reasons that are not reasonable, if the expectations are not normal for a kid that age... If the kid is made to feels on always edge in their own home... If they startle easy because they don't know when the next potch is coming. Then it's clear abusive. If a kid is potched occasionally then its really not clear if it's "abuse."

Same with yelling, emotional neglect... Etc If you don't have the emotional energy for your kids for a day or a while, and you snap at them, that's not the end of the world. Especially if you apologize or at least explain to your kids that its not their fault.

But if its constant, with no attempts at repair, that can be very damaging.

Anyways I wish we weren't questioning so much what's "abuse," and rather be asking whats emotially damaging vs whats emotially healthy, because only caring if something is abuse is such a non nuanced, non productive way of thinking.

Want to tell that to someone who may have been s-xually abused even just once?

People don't go around hitting other adults who don't act as we wish. Nobody hits their coworker or employee for poor performance. Nobody whacks a slow cashier or waiter or someone who rudely cuts in front of them in a line. Yet people think they can hit a child into complying. Because they are small and defenseless and don't fight back. It is abuse. It just is. Even once.

Redbird

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:09 pm

amother Peach wrote:

S-xual abuse is abuse. Full stop. I agree. Thats not debatable.

Hitting kids is wrong. Full stop.

But I would not say hitting is abuse, full stop.

Not every kid who was hit is traumatized. A parent can mess up, repair, and still be a good-enough parent.

Redbird

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:11 pm

scintilla wrote:

I just don't understand how it's supposed to be educational. We don't want our kids to hit, so why would we hit them? There are several lessons I think a kid can take from being hit, none of which I want them to learn:
- hitting is how we teach
- if someone does something we don't like we hit them
- violence is an appropriate response to something wrong or someone doing something I dislike
- it's ok if people I love hurt me/it's ok to hurt others if there's a good enough reason

Just think about how those potential messages can translate into adult relationships such as spouse and parent/child.

Also, I think everyone who does hit agrees that in order for it to be an appropriate chinuch approach it needs to be done when the parent is calm. If you're so calm and regulated, there are literally thousands of better parenting approaches to take that model behaviors we want our children to emulate.

Remember, our children learn more from what we do than what we say.

Those are just a few of my thoughts on the matter. And I wasn't hit as a child so I am not triggered, even though if you want to exclude anyone who was hit from the discussion that's excluding a large chunk of the population including those who have done a lot of research and thought into this since it did affect them deeply.

Finally, yes it's intentional that I'm calling it hitting and not patching/potching. Calling it a Yiddish word, I feel, covers up what it is: hitting your child. Maybe you think it's justified and I'm not here to judge you but let's call a spade a spade.

I agree with what you are saying

But I actually think it's perhaps more damaging when parents hit when they are calm and calculated. Then they are teaching that hitting is good and what you do when you love someone and that's so confusing and cold and robotic.

As opposed to hitting because you lost your temper and you feel bad and apologize, and do better, and that makes you human.

amother

Poinsettia

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:12 pm

Redbird wrote:

Every kid who's been hit remembers it, that's trauma to me. If the parent is lucky to repair the situation then the trauma has been delt with. That doesn't negate the fact that the potch was traumatic.

amother

NeonGreen

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:14 pm

amother Oatmeal wrote:

Whys the face different?
I needed trauma therapy for being hit, and I wasn't hit enough to be bruised

Sorry to derail.. Were you of older age when you seeked out help and decided to go with trauma therapy?
I'm asking because my kids are young and I'm the past I've hit them(not often, but I feel bad enough to see how I can help them not have lingering traumas) . And maybe I'm thinking to get them the help they need to get through this at an early age (they are under 10) so, this response caught my attention.
I'm just grateful I've learnt better ways to parent.. But it won't take away from the things I've done.

amother

Peach

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:31 pm

Redbird wrote:

If one time when I'm in the grocery store I would taste a few grapes and not pay for them, I stole them. Doesn't define my whole character as a thief. Maybe I never did it before and never will do it again. Maybe I even feel bad about it. I know I did wrong. Doesn't change the fact that I stole some grapes. In that moment, I stole. When you hit a child, in that moment you are being abusive. Everything that came before and after can be amazing, loving parenting. But in that one moment you behaved abusively. I don't really understand how it can be seen otherwise.

Redbird

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:34 pm

amother Poinsettia wrote:

Being hit by my sibling is just a bad memory. Being hit by my parent is more then just a bad memory.

Being hit by your parents is more traumatic because there is probably more to your story.

Did your parent apologize? Did they explain that when they lose themselves, it was their fault and not yours? Did they try to do better?

I'm assuming not.

Im not saying hitting is ok. I'm saying if you lost it and hit your kids once (or a bunch of times), you don't have to branded as an "abuser" for life. You can repair.

My fear is many people will read this thread, think they broke their kids irrevocably, and go into an unproductive shame spiral.

That's why I think labeling things too quickly as "abuse" lacks nuance and is damaging.

amother

Gold

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:37 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

When you hit an adult, it's called assault and it's illegal. Yet, striking a child is much worse. The child is vulnerable and dependent on you. Their brain is developing and you are teaching them how to deal with emotions, and what loving relationships look like. Be careful what you teach them.

If you put an adult in time out, it's called kidnapping and it's illegal.

amother

Topaz

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:42 pm

I am not particularly pro spanking but the common argument “would you hit your spouse/employee/etc to discipline” is a bit silly.. You wouldn’t discourage talking baby language or giving a baby a bottle or putting your toddler in the sandbox to play with the same argument (would you do those things with an adult??)

Obviously there is certain language and activities that are appropriate for a baby or child that are completely inappropriate for an adult in a similar situation..

The pro spanking camp argues that a young child hasn’t yet developed conventional logic and reasoning capabilities, but the ”language” they do understand is spanking in a tempered, not particularly painful loving manner.. (Yes that is possible..) Not angry hitting on the face or with a belt or any other objects.. that crosses into abuse. But turning the child over on your lap for a few not too hard quick spanks on a clothed bottom or kneeling down and holding child with one hand and gently slapping his hand with the other tells that child in their language that on one hand mommy is still holding you even while she is punishing you (child is on mommy’s lap) which sends a message of maternal love, at the same time the child gets the disciplinary message that xyz behavior is not ok..
After you hug and hold the child on your lap for a few minutes and say how much you love him and explain how it mommy really didn’t want to potch/spank but sometimes this has to be done to teach not to do xyz behavior..

This is not the only method of discipline and you may agree or not agree with this approach but to call this type of hitting/spanking abuse is just discrediting the term abuse when it’s truly called for. Such as serious beatings out of anger and using belts and causing marks etc.

amother

Tan

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:46 pm

OP, you’re looking to logically debate something a child feels emotionally. Emotions are heavily weighted in such a debate because children don’t accept logical reasons that enable parents to hit them.

Hitting is establishing a form of physical control over others. Even one time establishes physical control. We teach our children to control themselves physically and not to control others physically. When our dc physically controls another child in school, even one time/one bullying incident, we react by speaking to our dc. Yesterday, a child was mad at mine and bit her hard. The biter was placed in timeout and my child was hugged. Follow this approach. Don’t use physical force to control people. Our children understand logically and emotionally what happened in the gan yesterday and we teach at their level. A single hit to the biter would not have stopped him from biting tomorrow. When my dc physically lose control and lash out at another, we discuss why Hashem created hands. Neither mine nor my dc’s were created for the purpose of inflicting pain. As parents we lose control enough with our words, let’s not add hands. Losing control is not healthy for dc to see.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:47 pm

I actually would discourage talking baby language, first of all.

I believe in respecting all people. That means taking into account their unique abilities, where they are in their development, and my relationship with them. There's no relationship where hitting is respectful or appropriate. Perhaps a self defense scenario, but that won't come up with a toddler as it is easy enough to separate the two of you.

Last edited by BrisketBoss on Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Poinsettia

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:47 pm

Redbird wrote:

People that hit once and you're afraid are broken now, these people aren't on this thread flaunting the fact that they hit. They regret it and fixed it.
Those who have no issue saying that they hit and that their kids need it for 'chinuch', these people are abusers.

amother

Tan

Sun, Dec 24 2023, 11:51 pm

amother Topaz wrote:

Logically as a parent this may seem ok to you, but from a dc’s perspective, it’s confusing to be hit while being told you’re loved. Justifying using your hands against another person is also wrong. So a dc who wants love will not know the proper way to ask, do I misbehave or do I behave. After all both ways work equally to get my mommy’s attention. Sending a single firm message is more appropriate.