DL/Torani retention rates

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:14 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Why do they feel like they can't say anything re modesty outside of school?

Because school rules are for school. Not out of school.
Same as MO schools, as far as I know.
Also, many or some in DL.schools wear pants out of school. But the "uniform" in school is a skirt so they do that.
But the hanhala know that this is jusg for school. And they ard find eith that.

Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Cognac

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:14 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Why do they feel like they can't say anything re modestly outside of school?

I feel like outside of school it is the parents' realm what they want to enforce.

Also just IME when there are these rules, the punishment of breaking a rule like "skirts only" is almost always expulsion, which IMO spreads a message of "we are out to find and reject anyone who does not toe the line, we will spit you out, who cares what happens to you after, see we don't really care about YOU, we just care about our rules." If the infraction were punished with a disciplinary conversation, or even conversation + detention, I wouldn't find it so cold.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:20 am

amother Cognac wrote:

I guess I'm not familiar with a school and a household having such different expectations of the students/children.

In my experience most parents choose a school that is at least 70% in line with their worldview and the expectation is that whether or not you agree with certain rules, you will by and large follow them because that's the school rule.

It sounds like there are no disciplinary actions though. Not even just a conversation of "this is the school rule, once you have graduated, do what you want" Why isn't that possible?

amother

Cognac

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:24 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Btw I feel the same about more serious offenses that are done privately. I was upset to hear about a young soldier in a hesder program who was already in the military part, was alone on guard duty on Shabbat, and someone caught him looking at his phone and he was promptly kicked out of the hesder program. Shabbat is a VERY serious offense, but how is kicking the young man out of hesder (he then goes to regular military that the secular do) going to be beneficial to him or Am Israel even? I wish instead the would have given him a conversation with a rav, and even perhaps a military punishment like a losing leave, or a week in military prison ("so what are you in for?" - lol).

IMO only a public violation, severe disrespect of rabanim, etc, deserves expulsion.

essie14

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:32 am

Modesty is not the hill that DL schools want to die on.
They have a dress code for school. They don't police what girls do outside of school. The girls they want to attract won't go to a school that polices anything they do out of school. I won't send my kids to any school that has rules for parents or for the kids outside of school. Those aren't the values I have. I can have house rules and family rules but those are my business, not the school's business.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:33 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Sounds like they pick a choose. Why address bullying and not modesty?

The fact that you are asking this shows you didnt read my response. 🤦‍♀️
Some DL girls/females wear pants. But to school where there is a dress code, they wear skirts or dresses. So the administration cant force them to dress out of school in a way they dont dress. Get it?

Eta: essie, I was replying as your reply came up.
As can be expected, great minds think alike Smile

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Excuse me, but you added those details after I already responded. That's a rather rude accusation.

amother

Cognac

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 8:22 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Sounds like they pick a choose. Why address bullying and not modesty?

Well if it's minor bullying they wouldn't, but severe bullying can be a matter of pikuach nefesh, and even for the bullies involved, for their own good, it is extremely important that someone help them understand the urgency and severity of their behavior.

Modesty, to me personally, is about the same level of importance as making brachot before and after food. Definitely gotta be taught, but definitely not a hill I want to die on, especially outside of school.

amother

Cognac

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 8:31 am

Waaaay off topic:

If you look at the punishments that HaShem prescribed for his people, you'll see a lot of floggings and fines; it's not all death, death, death, so I don't know where these frum programs get using expulsion for every single offense from.

I know that floggings have fallen out of fashion, and fines aren't a great idea with teens (often their parents' money), so what I'd do is replace fines with hours of community service, and lashes with running laps around a track. I bet I'd have an excellent retention rate, and the ones who would have stayed anyway, would have less anxiety about their yiddishkeit, not feeling like someone was always watching ready to vanish them for any flaw. As a bonus, the naughty kids/soldiers would get really fit!

nylon

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 11:25 am

In the DL world, my impression is that in this respect it works like American MO: the school doesn't enforce the rules outside of school. If you want a school where all the girls wear skirts, you send to a school with parents who want that. It's your job as a parent to decide your rules for tzniut and how they are enforced. It's not a question of tzniut good or bad: it's about delineating control. The school should not be in control of what happens outside. That's the parents' job. For me, it's not "doesn't the school care," it's that I as the parent should be in charge outside school hours. For many of the girls who wear pants outside of school, the parents are fine with that. There are schools with a more Torani crowd where that would not be normal or acceptable.

And for that matter there are more liberal parents who davka don't want something so strict.

ora_43

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 3:56 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I think blaming one girl for donning pants on the other, is a cop out. The girls who starts wearing pants is not doing so because the school allowed another girl in the class, she would have gone in that direction anyway.

Not blame, just reality. People are heavily influenced by their surroundings. This is true all over the world, in a million facets of life, whether we're conscious of it or not. That doesn't make our actions other people's fault.

Quote:

If a school admits a girl who has a boyfriend and wears pants, I think it has to come with the added chinuch for that girl to understand why wearing pants is wrong. And the added chinuch for the rest of the class.

'Added chinuch' in what sense? What would that look like practically speaking?

(I wasn't thinking of school rules at all, but if we're talking a school situation, I think it's highly unlikely that it would be only one girl. Either a school is open to girls who aren't fully observant of tzniut/negia/whatever, in which case there will be many girls in that category, or it isn't, and there won't be any (that they know of))

amother

Pewter

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 4:13 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

In a dati leumi school?
Im thinking not. Thats not really a thing in the dati leumi world.
You have kids of many different types in a mamad school. And there are dress cides. Sometimes upheld, other times just not.
But out of school? Thats not the school's job. And not fair, in my opinion, for a school to umpose like that.

I agree with you

But I understand where the parents are coming from. They chose to send there kids to a more religious ulpana vs a more open mammad like Amit, and are really frustrated that there kids are having so much peer pressure to do things that are against there standards.
I see this as my issue to deal with my kids - but I have heard from parents that they wish the schools WOULD have rules out of school and that there would be consequences, IMHO because they want the school to deal with what is a parents responsibility, and its a bit of a lazy cop out.

Then again, I have really good kids who are not the rebellious personality, and it is really hard to help a teen stay strong when most of her peers are going in a different direction.

Someone brought the hesder example - that's totally different. If someone is old enough to put there life on the line, they are old enough to decide if they want to be frum or not. If they are using a phone on Shabbos, that's a decision that they made, and it is not fair to the rest of the group, who often sacrifice a lot to be in hesder and not deal with chilul shabbos.

Rappel

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 5:02 pm

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Hmmm... Can't speak for the world at large. But my observations:

In the city, Torani communities do kiruv. In the yishuvim, there is one school for the town - and that's it. So even if there are a spectrum of values among the parent body, the school has to be able to include them, and encourage good behavior. Sharp punishments are exclusionary, and that's outside the DL mindset.

For example: In Itamar, where I live, the school is a Talmud Torah. Simple, right? But...That school services kollel families, secular families, highly academic families, farmers whom only come to school 2 days out of the week, hilltop families, neighborhood families, families whom will scream murder if their kids use a screen in school, families whom standardly use screens as babysitters until mom comes home, families with unaddressed learning challenges, families with traumatic backgrounds, families with social/emotional difficulties etc etc etc...

And the school is not that big LOL

I'll never know how the principal manages everything.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 10:57 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So what are you teaching your child when you have different rules/standards for school and home?

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 11:00 pm

Rappel wrote:

I'll never know how the principal manages everything.

When a family chooses to live where you live, they know in advance that the school hosts a wide range of students from families with different standards. Thats OK as they teach their children tolerance and choice. Principal manages everything by being flexible and strong. I am sure there is behavior and standards that they draw the line at. I would hope.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 11:07 pm

ora_43 wrote:

When a school accepts a girl with a rebellious nature, they have to deal with that. When they accept a girl who wears pants at home, they have to deal with that as well.

For example in Kashrus, a friend of mine only buys vegetables she doesnt have to check as she doesnt want the responsibility and doesnt trust the companies that claim bug-free. So no lettuce, parsley, cauliflower or broccoli etc. in her home. She sticks to carrots, cucumbers, eggplant, tomato, peppers, zucchini, etc. As she puts it , its extra effort to deal with the others. Same with chinuch, there are children who are easier to deal with and children more challenging. A Beis Yaakov school has to make the resources available if they are to accept a girl who doesnt have a BY background and home. I can tell you that many BY have done so and successfully. But it does require more work.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 11:09 pm

amother Almond wrote:

You really see no difference? Bullying is an act of violence. Modesty is between the student and G-d.

Modesty is also between adam lechaveiro - an untzniusdik girl is making herself a michshol to the men around her (and women as well who may be influenced).
Bullying is also between adam leMakom as we are all created in Hashems image and hurting another human being is hurting Hashem.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Feb 24 2024, 11:14 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

So what are you teaching your child when you have different rules/standards for school and home?

Ill throw this question back and ask what about families that send to schools where computers/smart phones are not allowed, but theh secretly have them anyway? 🤔
And to actually answer your question, its just a dress code FOR school. Its literally like a uniform. Its worn just to school. Many people send to schools that have uniforms. The kids take those off when they come home. Same here. No difference.