moral issue-- extra money

amother

Wed, Sep 24 2008, 12:50 pm

The money has been returned. They did thank her for being honest. Apparently they are switching over to a new system where they scan all the checks, but it is not in place right now. The bank woman told this person that they would have eventually caught the mistake. (My relative doesn't think so.)

Thanks for weighing in with all your opinions.

Bambamama

Wed, Sep 24 2008, 1:22 pm

amother wrote:

Yay!! For sure they would have caught the mistake. I'm sure this happens more than we think.

amother

Wed, Sep 24 2008, 1:37 pm

Bambamama wrote:

Yay!! For sure they would have caught the mistake. I'm sure this happens more than we think.

Don't be so sure. This not a huge bank. It is a small credit union. My bank personal told her that they had no copy of the check she deposited. The only thing they have is the copy of the receipt she has. The one that says she deposited $10K. They told her they "probably" would have caught it eventually. Again, they thanked her for her honesty.

I am so glad it happened to her and not me. I would have been tempted not to do anything and see what happens. Money is not an easy nisayon for me. Crying

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 2:10 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

Wow. It's hard for me to imagine that someone would even consider keeping something which doesn't belong to them. Man, oh man, when we get up "there" after 120 we are going to have to answer for each and every one of our actions, technically permitted or not. I don't want an extra penny in my pocket when that day comes (extra = not mine).

I don't want it if it's not mine to have, according to halacha. But the halachos of hashovas aveida (returning a lost item) do not consist of one halacha: return it. There are numerous halachos with many details and sometimes, the money or lost item is yours to keep.

Haven't you also read many Jewish stories in which the happy ending is that the person gets a windfalll, and yes, sometimes it's at someone else's (the [gentile]'s) expense?

And in this case, because it's a bank and it's all computerized, they can find the error, but otherwise? Money given in error does not have to be returned unless the non-Jew will realize it and it will be a chilul Hashem. In other words, it's not about not taking money that doesn't belong to you, which is what many of you have written about. It's about the bank catching up with you.

So if you take money out using the ATM and withdraw $100 but since the bills are sticking together you end up with an extra $20, I do not think you have a halachic obligation to return it to a non-Jewish bank.

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 2:11 pm

The Talmud tells a story about Rav Shmuel bar Sosretai. The queen in Rome had lost a valuable jewel, which was found by Rav Shmuel. The queen made a public announcement that anyone who returned the jewel within thirty days would receive a prize, whereas anyone found with it after thirty days would be executed.

Rav Shmuel deliberately waited until after the thirty day period and then voluntarily returned the object. The queen, seeing that Rav Shmuel was returning the jewel completely voluntarily, tried to find a loophole for him: perhaps you weren't in the city early in the month? Perhaps you didn't hear the announcement?

Rav Shmuel asserted that he knew very well of the announcement, and was only returning the jewel after the deadline so that people would know that his motivation was not fear of the sovereign, but rather of the fear of God's commandments. In this way he sanctified God's name among the Romans.

Jerusalem Talmud Bava Metzia chapter 2 halacha 5.

mugsisme

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 2:22 pm

Motek, can I ask you (or anyone else) a question? How come some of our halachos are different for yidden and non jews? for instance, if it is a yid involved, the money should be returned. But to non jews, it wouldn't have to be. One time we were sitting around with my father who is not frum, and one of my kids spoke about someone else. Another one said to stop, it is lashon hara. So the first one pipes up, no it's not; it is about a [gentile]. So now my father thinks that frum Yidden are elitist, and put other frum people first. (His words, not mine.)

alpidarkomama

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 2:48 pm

[quote="Motek"]

ChossidMom wrote:

So if you take money out using the ATM and withdraw $100 but since the bills are sticking together you end up with an extra $20, I do not think you have a halachic obligation to return it to a non-Jewish bank.

You may not have an obligation, but in IMHO you still have a moral obligation. I wrestle a lot with it being halachically acceptable to keep money that is simply not yours. To me it is clearly theft. Does it mean we can also copy cds because a [gentile] produced it? Or make illegal copies of software on our computers? I just think it's a dangerous slippery slope and I can't believe it's halachically acceptable.

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 3:50 pm

kerith wrote:

You may not have an obligation, but in IMHO you still have a moral obligation. I wrestle a lot with it being halachically acceptable to keep money that is simply not yours. To me it is clearly theft.

Sounds like what your saying is halacha doesn't meet up to your standards.

Quote:

Does it mean we can also copy cds because a [gentile] produced it? Or make illegal copies of software on our computers?

Those questions have been addressed by halachic authorities. These are not moral issues. They are halachic issues.

What is your moral standard based on, if not on Torah?

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 3:52 pm

Quote:

How come some of our halachos are different for yidden and non jews?

That's the way it is for many halachos. For example, you are not allowed to pressure a Jew to return a loan while there is a d'oraisa mitzva to pressure a non-Jew to return a loan.

If a [gentile] steals, he's chayav misa (punishable by death). If a Jew steals, he is not chayav misa.

Could be there are separate reasons in each case.

cassandra

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 4:00 pm

Many people believe there is morality outside of Torah.

Much like R. Akiva did not feel comfortable EVER instituting the death penalty even though the Torah allows it.
Or like the Torah commanding us in "Kedoshim Tehiyu" or "V'asisa ha-yashar v'ha-tov" Obviously there is "yashar" and "tov" outside of the mitzvos, otherwise this would be kind of redundant.

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 4:15 pm

cassandra wrote:

Many people believe there is morality outside of Torah.

I'm sure they do. Since this is a forum for frum women, the assumption is that Torah dictates what is moral.

Quote:

Much like R. Akiva did not feel comfortable EVER instituting the death penalty even though the Torah allows it.

Comfortable? Please cite the source.

Quote:

Or like the Torah commanding us in "Kedoshim Tehiyu" or "V'asisa ha-yashar v'ha-tov" Obviously there is "yashar" and "tov" outside of the mitzvos, otherwise this would be kind of redundant.

Kedoshim tehiyu is counted by some as one of the 613. Either way, 'kedoshim tihiyu" and 'vaasisa" are Torah injunctions.

cassandra

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 4:24 pm

Motek wrote:

I'm sure they do. Since this is a forum for frum women, the assumption is that Torah dictates what is moral.

Many frum people believe this.

Quote:

Comfortable? Please cite the source.

I'll find the source later. It is very well known that R. Akiva was against the death penalty.

Quote:

Kedoshim tehiyu is counted by some as one of the 613. Either way, 'kedoshim tihiyu" and 'vaasisa" are Torah injunctions.

The overarching thing is a mitzvah. The specifics you need to figure out on your own. That's morality.

alpidarkomama

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 9:18 pm

Motek wrote:

kerith wrote:

You may not have an obligation, but in IMHO you still have a moral obligation. I wrestle a lot with it being halachically acceptable to keep money that is simply not yours. To me it is clearly theft.

Sounds like what your saying is halacha doesn't meet up to your standards.

Quote:

Does it mean we can also copy cds because a [gentile] produced it? Or make illegal copies of software on our computers?

Those questions have been addressed by halachic authorities. These are not moral issues. They are halachic issues.

What is your moral standard based on, if not on Torah?

But that's why I said I ***wrestle*** with it. Very different than what you just said.

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 9:24 pm

cassandra wrote:

And many frum people have differences on opinions of things. Are you the arbiter of what is anti-Torah?

I don't understand why are you asking that. Someone says she doesn't think halacha goes far enough, that her moral sensibilities go beyond halacha. I asked what the moral standard is based on, if not Torah. I haven't gotten an answer.

kerith- why is it very different? and what is your moral standard based on?

mummiedearest

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 9:29 pm

Motek wrote:

cassandra wrote:

And many frum people have differences on opinions of things. Are you the arbiter of what is anti-Torah?

motek, what is your definition of chumra?

Motek

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 9:32 pm

Chumra, hiddur, lifnim mishuras ha'din, mesirus nefesh, have Torah parameters.

Those who are genuinely machmir, mehader, go lifnim mishuras ha'din, do something with mesirus nefesh, don't do so with the attitude that the Torah is not good enough, doesn't go far enough, and they will do better.

alpidarkomama

Thu, Sep 25 2008, 10:43 pm

Of course my moral standard comes from the torah! I'm sure that's the case for most everyone on this list, and that's why we're here, I presume!!!???!!!

And according to the Rama (CM 266:1) it is proper to return a lost object to a non-Jew as a kiddush hashem. In fact, it is stated that we are obligated to do so if not doing so will cause a chillul hashem. I'm pretty sure $10,000 would qualify.