Charging money for those with no money

amother

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 8:33 am

The point is that if you are lenient, people will think she is lenient and will not make an effort of paying you, they also might take advantage of you, who knows. Tell them that you need the money on time because you also have bills to pay. If they haven't paid by X date the kid will not be allowed in the gan until they paid.

OldYoung

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 10:04 am

Seraph, do you have any sort of contract that the parents sign when they send their kids to you? If not, you may want to create one and have a nicely written note about your payment policy, and what standard procedure is if a check bounces. (Imho, you should speak to a Rav to draw up that sort of plan. And as a side, explain the situation to him so that, worst case scenario, things get way too out of hand, you can have the families speak to that Rav directly and maybe he can help them with outstanding payments.)

Barbara

Fri, Nov 07 2008, 10:39 am

Seraph wrote:

it wasnt like that. these people gave me checks and they bounced... so I should tell them to take out a loan and pay me? I feel wrong, because we do have money for food now. the specific issue is even if we have money now, we wont be having it in the future bec circumstances have changed and we wont be making the same amount anymore even...

I think you really do need to be upfront with these people. *Your check bounced. We need to sit down and work out a payment plan for the money that's owed, as well as some assurance that I'll be paid on time in the future.* If they claim that they can't afford it, express sympathy, but then make absolutely clear that *you* can't afford to take in their kid(s) without payment.

Look, you (or someone else) mentioned how expensive the holidays are to make. Trust me, I feel that pain as well. But I feel it, you feel it, THEY feel it, because we paid the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker. The money went to those people *instead of you* Why? Because those other people wouldn't provide products and services without the money. You're living on rice and beans, and your husband is without glasses, because no one is giving you chickens and spectacles without money. Why should you be different?

Good luck.

Seraph

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 12:02 pm

ok, I'll take a stand on monday.

As for the question about confusing- its two families specifically that had issues paying me on time. One, their check bounced, the other asked me not to cash the check bec it would definitely bounce. Both have cars. One, I pressured somewhat and she got cash and paid me, the other I felt bad to pressure cuz its a good friend and they still havent paid me... but I'll be firm with them monday...

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 12:51 pm

Something else I thought of about having a child in the gan as tzedaka - this might be appropriate if a family approached you about having their child in gan and you thought, because of their circumstances, that you were willing to take the child for no/ reduced fee (eg a single mother who has no income and this is the only way she can work, a family with 12 kids and the mother is sick and can't take care of the child etc). The difference is that you would decide BY YOURSELF that this is an unusual case. NOT that the family approaches you with some sob story. You know yourself that these people are no worse off (and possibly better off) than anyone else in your gan/ area. Everyone else had yomtov too. Just these people are the type to not budget properly and/or not care about paying someone who they feel won't make problems.

amother

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 3:02 pm

shalhevet wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

If they give you an excuse that they had to pay more for chag, maybe suggest that they can save money by buying rabbanut meat or not buying tickets for shul. Unlike failing to pay workers on time, neither is an issur d'oraita.

Buying Rabbanut meat is assur if you're assuming you can't rely on the kashrus based on what your Rav tells you. Are you trying to make a point, or are you being serious? I hardly think Seraph would feel comfy approaching them with that suggestion.

I am both being serious and trying to make a point.

There are many rabbis who allow rabbanut meat. There are no rabbis who allow not paying a worker on time. Maybe mentioning that would shock people into realizing that they shouldn't be using frumkeit (in this case, chag expenses) as an excuse to violate Torah law.

I don't eat rabbanut meat and I agree with Ora. If you don't pay at the agreed time you are mevatel an asei (even if the person agrees), and if you pay late (without permission) you are breaking a Torah law.

I agree that they are violating Torah law by not paying. But I hardly think suggesting they eat what they think to be Treif meat is a solution. They just won't take her seriously. Leave the meat out of it. They need to pay you. Zehu.

shalhevet

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 4:53 pm

Tell your dh that you are running the gan to help with your family's parnassa. If he is not going to support you about people paying, you are going to close the gan. You could save more money by being a SAHM (more time to cook cheaper things, bake yourself etc) and be with Uriel more.

Raisin

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 5:09 pm

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

amother wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

they don't have to buy meat in a hechsher they don't use, they can eat what Seraph and her husband have been eating.

Although, anyone who thinks rabbanut meat is treif has got some serious issues.

sarahnurit

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 5:19 pm

I think that you shouldn't feel bad for asking the money they owe you. If they can't afford gan, they should keep the children home. It's not right that your family suffers because they don't have money. YOU are doing an effort to solve your money problem for your family...

Barbara

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 6:20 pm

Seraph wrote:

this person came by tonight, and I put a little pressure on him to pay (just asked him if theres any progress with getting me the money)... and my husband is very upset at me for doing that...

So sorry to hear that. You really *are* between a rock and a hard place. Good luck.

bebe3

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 6:49 pm

I don't understand how if people do not have money use a service they cannot afford and then expect the service to be okay with them not paying. It's a matter of being mentchlich. It is not up to the service provider to chase down people to pay, it is up to the one who is obtaining the service to feel the need to pay on time, and if they can't, they should feel extremely embarrassed and apologetic, not avoid you.

You can tell them that you have been very understanding and patient, but your services are sadly not free. If they cannot come up with a payment plan (like making lunch for the class one day, or providing snack and drinks) maybe they can find another service that is either less expensive or free.

ora_43

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 6:59 pm

First of all sorry if I was too harsh, I know these people are your friends. I'm sure they don't realize that what they're doing is wrong. They probably think it's just a part of life, something that happens, etc, and don't realize how serious it is. And they're probably not deliberately choosing you as the one to not be paid, it's just that everyone else is pushier.

If your husband doesn't want you to push them IMO that changes things. He's the one ultimately responsible for providing for the family, so if he would rather have you not ask for payment then have you help with the family income, that's his decision. But if you have a problem working for free or think your family really needs the money, you should tell him that.

Seraph

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 12:57 am

my husband said these people are my friends and probably the reason they chose my gan is bec of that, and now I'm not acting as a friend. he said bec they're friends I can trust that they're gonna give me the money, the answer is just when... I said the halacha of having to pay a worker on time, and he said that, as with everything, you're able to mochel...

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 12:59 am

Seraph wrote:

So they can take advantage of you when things get tight and you won't do anything????

There are no friends in business.

raizy

Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:48 am

thank you ladies I have the same problems and my parents only pay 35 dollars a week the goverment paies the rest. tomorow I will ask everyone to pay. now let me go and make them all bills and no sob stories.... cash only and no bounced check... etc....

and I used to pay my lady every thursday rain or shine...

techiemom

Mon, Sep 05 2011, 5:50 pm

Sometimes it is about mixed-up priorities, as others have said. I know someone who has told me about clients who will tell him that they can't pay for kids' medical needs, then proceed to tell him about their fancy tvs and boats or the trips they keep going on. There's nothing wrong with saying to someone that they have committed to a spot in your gan and you have purchased supplies on the child's behalf and it is putting hardship on you when they don't pay. And try not to be apologetic... you are running a business.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Sep 05 2011, 8:48 pm

Actually, I find this thread to be VERY relevant! I was just about to post a similar question when I found this.

Thanks to these three pages, I got up my courage and emailed an invoice to a friend of mine who I babysit for. She owes me about $200 which I desperately need right now - but I know that things are tight for her family too. I was wondering what to do and how to approach her, so the comments here were very helpful to me! Very Happy