Poor | Imamother

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 11:16 am

What do you consider to be poor? Who do you consider/does halacha consider to be poor in terms of being recipients of tzedaka?
Do you consider yourself to be poor?

Someone who has "money" but is heavily in debt- are they poor? Someone who has not much money but they live very richly, do you consider to be poor? Is poor only considered to be someone who has no money to put food on the table?

Am I poor? We have a very very very minimal savings account- at the moment its just about enough for one months rent and thats it. We definitely live from paycheck to paycheck, and quite often are "in minus". Our debit cards are currently canceled on hold because our landlord cashed our rent check and put us past our minus limit, and we have 25 dollars to last us until my husbands paycheck clears in the bank. (I deposited it today.) We live very simply. Have mostly beans during the week.
Would you consider us to be poor?

We live in a poor community. They have food boxes they give out around yomim tovim to familys that are poor. Anyone who feels a need comes to the rabbi's house and takes a box.
If you were us, would you take a box?
Would you consider us poor enough?
Do you consider yourself poor enough?

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 11:24 am

I feel like we are "poor" because we are constantly worried about how we're going to pay for basic expenses and bills. We don't own our home, we drive a minivan (which we bought when our financial situation was better), and our kids have nice clothes (hand-me-downs and gifts)... on the surface we look like we're doing OK, but the truth is we're struggling. We aren't homeless B"H but because we worry about paying for the basics I feel like we are poor. I would not take hand-outs though. I would accept hand-me-downs from friends and family, but we are still able to buy our own food, so I wouldn't take free food. I wouldn't judge someone who does, though, because it could just be my foolish pride and maybe we do deserve to take food.

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 11:33 am

amother wrote:

OP here. We don't own a car, we don't own a house, and our most valuable possesion is my laptop that I got as a gift. My kid's clothes are hand me downs, all my kids things are either bought at a gemach or second hand for very very cheap. Our furniture is all either second hand or hand me downs- we officially bought new only 2 peices of furniture- 2 bookcases, and that was for very cheap. All my clothes are either from a very discount store- think 6-7 dollars a peice, or from a gmach- 50 cents a peice.
I dont turn on the heater except for very rarely because its very expensive and I dont have the money to pay for it...

Tamiri

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 11:59 am

I think it's a matter of what you feel, not what anyone else tells you. If you think that having a gift of food would make your life easier, and would not be taking from someone more needy then yourselves, well: that's what it's there for.
The problem is taking when you can afford, and thus denying someone else. The gifts are limited.

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 12:42 pm

I have one more question to add and a thought on a previous post:

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Are you allowed to consider yourself poor (and thus take from the community) if you have the ability to improve your financial situation but dont?

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Is it really about how poor you FEEL??? Well that leaves the door open for misuse and fraud.

I have been both poor with no savings and living very frugally paycheck to paycheck. Now we are thankfully making a good living, but I am still frugal because we have no life/disability insurance and I know that good fortune does not always last.
I still feel poor, when I can save a few pennies I usually do, and when I can save a few hundred dollars I especially do.
BUT only savings that are at my own expense - Not buying book and using the library, not buying newspapers or going to the movies. But taking a break on tuition would be on other people expense and that is not fair to others. Not only that, but when I am at the meat counter and there are good cuts on clearance... well now I *make* myself walk past it, because I know that when I needed it I was grateful to find the bargain and I would hate to take it away from someone who REALLY cannot afford it and will not buy it when its at its regular price.

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:19 pm

am I poor if my checking account is perpetually in "the minus" and the savings account just about covers that minus? we definitely live from one paycheck to the next and chicken and fish are Shabbos treats.

We B"H do own our own home - I guess that counts for a lot. and my teens can afford to buy their clothes first-hand, although almost all on sale.

(My oven died a few months ago; now I bake my cakes for Shabbos in the microwave, since I can't afford right now to buy another one.)

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:23 pm

To me, if you were to lose your job and that would mean that you can't pay the rent, then yes, you are poor. You can't buy the food you want (I am assuming you do not choose to eat beans 6 days of the week), you can't replace appliances when needed. What if your roof started leaking and you needed to replace it? Do you pay tuition?

Anyway, why get hung up on labels. If you need help, take it. If you have the power to better your situation financially, then do so.

amother

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 1:24 pm

amother wrote:

dare I add that the wig I sue daily is 2nd-hand also - I splurged 2 years ago and bought one new for Yom tov - for $600!
But I still feel that I'm fortunate enough to be able (still) to be a giver and not a taker.

ora_43

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:33 am

I think it's fine to take anything for the purpose it's meant for, if you qualify according to whoever's giving.

So for example, it's fine to take food for the holiday if otherwise you wouldn't be able to afford food for the holiday (would have to go into minus=unable to afford, in my book). It would not be OK to take food for the holiday in order to save that money to use elsewhere, unless the food distributors say it's OK.

It's fine to take a tuition break if you need the money to pay tuition. It's not fine to take a tuition break in order to save that money towards buying new furniture (unless you really, really need it--I doubt tuition committees expect you to sleep on a rotting mattress) or eating out twice a month. Etc.

Someone who's living beyond their means does not qualify as "poor" even if he or she is short on money, IMO. Poor is when you live within your means (as you obviously do) and still don't have enough money.

It's not really about being poor or not, though, since some grants or gifts are available also to those who aren't poor. What's important is being honest about what you can afford and using the money for it's intended purpose.

Usually all these things have rules, and they only give out to those who qualify and not just to anyone. So you don't need me or any other random internet people to decide for you--just ask whoever organizes the holiday food baskets if you can have one and briefly explain your situation.

Tamiri

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:46 am

amother wrote:

You my dear, are not poor if you have $600 to spend on a sheital. But that is my opinion since I don't see the importance of it. If it's a "must have" item in your community, then I guess ... well, no. There are $100 ones out there too.
Also, if you own your home (meaning: no mortgage) then you aren't poor.

mimivan

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:48 am

I think that depends on whether she lives in a community where wearing a sheitel is the norm or required. $600 is not expensive for a sheitel, but when we were at our poorest, I would get barely worn second hand sheitels for about $200.

It is a luxury if someone is, for instance, belongs to a derech where wearing a sheitel is not required. For us, even when we had nothing, I still needed one.

Last edited by mimivan on Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:52 am

Tamiri wrote:

amother wrote:

dare I add that the wig I use daily is 2nd-hand also - I splurged 2 years ago and bought one new for Yom tov - for $600!
But I still feel that I'm fortunate enough to be able (still) to be a giver and not a taker.

yes, there are $100 sheitels out there, but if you calculate their value by how long they last, the $600 ones are cheaper in the long run and yes, for me it's a "must have" item. (the truth be told - I didn't really buy it for yom tov. I bought it as a "splurge" for my son's chasuna and use it since then only for yom tov, using my $100 one for weekdays.)

Tamiri wrote:

Also, if you own your home (meaning: no mortgage) then you aren't poor.

we're still paying a low gov't mortgage; we were very fortunate to buy at a time when the prices were dirt-cheap.

grin

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 3:59 am

Tamiri wrote:

Poor is in the eyes of the beholder, I guess.

actually, my dh has told me that poor is a relative term and is connected with the standard of living in your surrounding environment. He has the obligation of providing you with all your needs relative to that customary where you live. If everyone else has live-in help and you can't afford it. you may be considered poor!

shalhevet

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:24 am

Tamiri wrote:

Also, if you own your home (meaning: no mortgage) then you aren't poor.

That isn't necessarily true.

What if Family A earns 5K a month (dollars, shekels, whatever) and pays 1K in rent/mortgage, while Family B owns their own home but earns 3K a month? (assuming similar family size etc) Also, those with their own homes have upkeep expenses those renting do not.

I think it is wrong to decide any general rule (earning over X a month/ owning a car/ owning your own home) means someone isn't poor (ok, there are things I would include like taking your family to a hotel for Pesach, but you get the idea). People have different circumstances and necessities. For some people a car is a luxury, for someone else they may not be able to earn a living without one or may have a special needs or sick child making a car a necessity.

grin

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:25 am

the fact that you may demand it al pi halacha doesn't mean you're required to*! We're always supposed to strive for histapkus be'muat, and that may mean in your case going without cleaning help. Instead of trying to feel poor, give yourself credit for good midos!

* as long as it's not a real need for you under the circumstances. otherwise, it can be like a "tzadik shote" - striving for the inappropriate. For an example, see mimivan's following post(s)

Last edited by grin on Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total