We're not all that different

marina

Sun, May 10 2009, 6:47 pm

Yes, I know that there are groups in Judaism that stress the holiness of the Jew over everyone else.
That's part of their religious philosophy and that's fine.

But people in those groups need to make peace with the fact that in many ways, gentiles are just as moral and good and crooked and evil as Jews are. A brief glance through this site alone, a site for frum women, will yield evidence of abusive spouses, cheating spouses and chemical dependency issues. Jewish people deal with the same challenges that everyone else does.

Yes, true, if you are quite sheltered and get your information about the secular world from talkshows that discuss topics like "My teenager is sleeping with my boyfriend" then, yes, you might have the wrong impression of secular society. But real people are not like crazy tv shows, that's why they are on tv, to entertain the rest of us sane people.

It should be possible to somehow appreciate our own heritage and beliefs without resorting to explaining why everyone else is like an animal. Really because that kind of statement detracts from any worth of whatever else you were saying. Just my two cents.

I once had a friend who was taught her whole life that non jews were crazy and evil. She went to a BY type school. When she moved away from NY and had to live in a little town in the middle of nowhere for her husband's job transfer, she quickly found out that some of her best friends were going to be religious gentiles. And some of the frum people were not as nice to her as her gentile neighbors. After that experience, she began to doubt other things that she was taught as well. Just saying.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, May 10 2009, 8:08 pm

I didn't really read in depth the thread that I think sparked this one but although we do believe that the neshoma of a Jew is different then that of a non jew we believe that non jews have a role to play in this world too. I have a book somewhere written by a non jew who became a ben noaite (although I hear later he went off and became more like a karaite) where he describes it pretty well. The Jews are kind of like the Kohanim to all the other nations.

louche

Sun, May 10 2009, 9:32 pm

Nice analogy, LA. A lot of us unfortunately forget that all humankind was made betzelem elokim and that there are many perfectly nice, good, decent and better-than-decent people out there who don't happen to have been born into the jewish faith. we haven't cornered the market on decency, and sadly, they haven't cornered the market on its opposite.

louche

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:15 pm

Frankly, and if I get bashed for this, so be it, I find that in many ways I have more in common with some religiously observant xians than I have with some frei Jews, and they are way more respectful and considerate of my observance. Obviously they are more open-minded and tolerant xians, not wild-eyed fundamentalists. They grew up with a lot of the same rules I did and are just as disgusted by what's on TV and radio as I am--unlike my "liberal" Jewish friends who can't see what's wrong with their teenagers watching S*x and the City.

mimivan

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:15 pm

I think the false assumption is that different automatically means inferior or superior in the way things play out in the world...that if we are the children of Hashem or have a special neshama, we are automatically better in our behavior...not true..

Because we have more mitzvos to fulfill and a larger responsibility we are also faced with so many challenges to our kedusha, including the Jewish yetzer hara...it is entirely different on a spiritual plane, but this isn't apparent in the day to day world. One of the reasons for alot of the aveiras OP mentioned...drug addiction, adultery etc...is a Jew's desire to escape this condition, but he can't even if he tries. He can't just "be like the non jews" even if he tells himself he is (and tries to fit in by deliberately doing non-holy things for example)

What I don't like is the assumption that the acknowledgment of this difference means hatred of non jews...as was said above..they have their shlichus in this world and we have ours. But we don't have to pretend there is no difference at all for the sake of being "nice" or "PC"

gonewiththewind

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:30 pm

mimivan wrote:

I could not have said it better. Bravo.
I'm not sure what your reason for starting this thread was, Marina. You make a statement, engage once again in false stereotyping of the stupid, sheltered types; don't bring any actual sources of what the gemara says or what the chachomim who have become an accepted part of our mesora say. You basically give your opinion and some anecdotes.

entropy

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:34 pm

The idea that Jews have a special neshama is not representative of all walks of Judaism, so when you make such statements please refrain from using the royal "we" and specify who's shitta you go by.

I was just reading that the Natzi"v of Volozhin taught we have no inherent holiness save for the Mitzvot Hashem has given us in order to sanctify us, and the only time we achieve holiness is when we are serving Hashem by keeping his Mitzvot.

Cohanim have more Mitzvot, non jews have less, but everyone has the means to become sanctified through Mitzvot and to obtain a part in the world to come.

Last edited by entropy on Sun, May 10 2009, 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

mimivan

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:36 pm

entropy wrote:

The idea that Jews have a special neshama is not representative of all walks of Judaism, so when you make such statements please refrain from using the royal "we" and specify who's shitta you go by.

I was just reading that the Natzi"v of Volozhin taught we have no inherent holiness save for the Mitzvot Hashem has given us in order to sanctify us, and the only time we achieve holiness is when we are serving Hashem by keeping him Mitzvot.

Cohanim have more Mitzvot, non jews have less, but everyone has the means to become sanctified through Mitzvot and to obtain a part in the world to come.

I wasn't using the royal "we" concerning what the majority of Jews believe...but the "we" concerning the concept...t
the discussion can be found in the Tanya but Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi

marina

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:39 pm

Quote:

I'm not sure what your reason for starting this thread was, Marina. You make a statement, engage once again in false stereotyping of the stupid, sheltered types; don't bring any actual sources of what the gemara says or what the chachomim who have become an accepted part of our mesora say. You basically give your opinion and some anecdotes.

Huh? I started this thread in response to a thread which is now long since gone and in that thread a poster made some unusually negative statements about all gentiles. If you have sources, feel free to bring them. I am just sharing my observations.

Clarissa

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:56 pm

miriamf wrote:

As Marina said, there was a deleted thread today. It said some very harsh things about non-Jews, for no reason. I mean it, a poster just suddenly said that they're no better than animals. Nobody is getting into anything about sheltered types. She's just asking us to see that we need to see other people, even non-Jews, as people. We don't want to get so caught up in how fabulous we are that we start to see everyone else as a bunch of horny goats. Which is basically what was said.

marina

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:58 pm

GR, did you see what that person wrote? It really was narrow-minded and bigoted, that's why the thread disappeared. I don't think everyone here or even every yeshivish/chareidi person thinks that way, but some do. I don't think it's inappropriate of me to write a post addressing that, do you? I'm a little confused, to tell you the truth.

Clarissa

Sun, May 10 2009, 10:58 pm

GR and miriamf, I promise you, it was all about Jews vs. non-Jews, not about one kind of Jew vs. another. The only point here is that we should enjoy our own mitzvot and place in the world without describing non-Jews as disgusting and unable to commit to marriage. Just to give you one glorious line:

Quote:

and when they get tired of one spouse they find another one, and you tell me they are not like animals? Huh!

And that's the tip of the iceberg. Trust me, Marina's point has nothing to do with Jews being sheltered, outside of the fact that we need to see our neighbors as potentially as decent as we strive to be.

entropy

Sun, May 10 2009, 11:49 pm

mimivan wrote:

I wasn't using the royal "we" concerning what the majority of Jews believe...but the "we" concerning the concept...t
the discussion can be found in the Tanya but Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi

Thank you for clarifying. I read it as "we believe our souls are different", not "According to Tanya, our souls are different " I know you meant the latter, but I wanted to clarify for the benefit of readers who might not realize that these ideas are foreign to their own messorah.