Support once support time is over

zaq

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 11:26 am

Do what you feel is right for you and your dc. If you feel they have never learned to budget properly, by all means shut the purse and let them sink or swim. It's called "tough love". They will never learn to budget if they know they can always turn to you to make up any shortfall.

You know how the airlines tell you to first put on your own oxygen mask and then help your child with his? Or the halacha that if you and a friend are lost in the Sahara and you have only enough water to save your own life, you must drink and not share with your buddy lest you both die? Don't jeopardize your financial stability for your dc's. Especially not if they are being fiscally irresponsible.

seeker

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 11:50 am

I dint know of any rule but IMNSHO "support time" should include a transition plan. In my experience it is not so simple to go from kollel to self sufficient, not least because most kollel expats coming from the support culture are not qualified for the kinds of jobs it takes to support a family. If you feel that five years and no more is what you can provide, then you should make it clear that the last two or three of those years should be at least partly spent getting training or experience towards whatever is going to come next so the family doesn't end up with suddenly nothing. You can not expect the couple to figure ths out in their own because their assumption is going to be that while you are supporting them in full time learning they need to be learning full time the entire time to justify your support. But this leaves them in a very tough position when that ends. What are they supposed to live on? How many people on their first job attempt make enough to support a family which by then may include 2-3 babies and preschoolers?

shoshanim999

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 11:58 am

In my opinion the reality of going from kollel to working is probably not practical. Is he making 100k a year? Probably not. Most kollel families r not small and so how is he practically supposed to save $$ to buy a house, pay a mortgage,pay tuitions, ect? The truth is that most in town families need at least 125k after tax money to survive. Another reality is that many of these families (most?) don't make that money. Therefore they must be getting help from someone. Maybe parents, grandparents, yeshiva breaks, but someone most be helping. What I'm getting at is that unless ur children r making real money, they will need ur help- probably forever. Its very difficult to define exactly what extras are? Is the wife buying a $3000 shaitel? Did they lease a Lexus for $500 a month? What were the extras?

zaq

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 12:13 pm

It is amazing how frum society picks and chooses the halachot it will follow. Is it not a halacha that a man must teach his son a trade? A trade, an occupation, a means of earning an honest living by the sweat of his brow (or by the sweat of someone else's brow, should he choose to become a personal trainer or phys ed coach)? When did this become as obsolete as selling oneself into slavery and having one's ear pierced as a sign of shame if one preferred to remain a slave rather than go free? When did "balebatish" become a put-down instead of high praise? Why do we admire the Torah giants of centuries past and conveniently ignore the fact that those who didn't inherit wealth worked for a living, and those who inherited wealth worked at managing that wealth? The whole current yeshiva-to-marriage-to-kollel-with-parental-support system stinks. It infantilizes people, is unsustainable, leads to unrealistic expectations, and would be appropriate only for a select, exceptional few of superior ability and character who are in training to be genuine leaders.

Last edited by zaq on Sun, Jun 14 2015, 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

Maya

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 12:16 pm

zaq wrote:

It is amazing how frum society picks and chooses the halachot it will follow. Is it not a halacha that a man must teach his son a trade? A trade, an occupation, a means of earning an honest living by the sweat of his brow (or by the sweat of someone else's brow, should he choose to become a personal trainer or phys ed coach)? When did this become as obsolete as selling oneself into slavery and having one's ear pierced as a sign of shame if one preferred to remain a slave rather than go free? When did "balebatish" become a put-down instead of high praise? Why do we admire the Torah giants of centuries past and conveniently ignore the fact that those who didn't inherit wealth worked for a living, and those who inherited wealth worked at managing that wealth? The whole current yeshiva-to-marriage-to-kollel-with-parental-support system stinks. It is infantilizes people, is unsustainable, leads to unrealistic expectations, and would be appropriate only for a select, exceptional few of superior ability and character who are in training to be genuine leaders.

amother

Green

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 12:20 pm

IME, you can't give others $$ and then get angry what they spend it on. It's not fair for either of you.

However, you can give them money with earmarks--"I'll pay your rent for a year, please give me your landlord's name and I'll send you checks to send to them."

Otherwise? I have a friend who has found herself bankrupt several times. At first I tried to help, but then I saw her shopping at Whole Foods. I was furious--I don't have a lot, I use store brand Pathmark everything. So I stopped giving.

Make a plan, tell them how long you'll help them for. Stick to it unless it's an emergency and hope they learn to budget.

JAWSCIENCE

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 1:43 pm

I think the problem here is they just call whenever they need more moneY. So you have no idea how much or when and they feel no need to budget because they can just call you for whatever.

You need to decide an amount you want to give and then tell them that's it so they can budget. You can even do it together - say it is not working for you to just randomly get called for money and instead would like to work in a budget with them them. You should not be analyzing every manicure or meal out. They should have a budget and how to spend it is their business. But that means also addressing how long you are willing for this to go on for and future plans/savings. Stress that you are not looking to control or judge their spending but you need a set amount and time that works for you.

zaq

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 2:12 pm

Unlike Jawscience who gives you permission to continue providing financial support, I feel quite strongly that you should back out right now. You agreed to X years, not X years plus. Your sil is now working B"H. He may not be making a fortune, but he is working. Your dc need to learn how to live within their means and that sometimes this requires some sacrifices. The only way to learn this is by doing it. Time for you to bow out of the financial picture entirely. Obviously this would not apply if G-d forbid your dc had catastrophic medical bills or some other "act of G-d" that wiped them out financially, but vacation or a new custom sheitel do not qualify as acts of G-d.

amother

Silver

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 2:28 pm

zaq wrote:

You have to remember, this couple didn't just happen to end up in kollel. Based on information provided, this is what was expected of them and the parents expected to support them during that time. Whether or not you agree with the system, that is how this particular family (and many others) decided to do things. If the parents did not clarify the details of how the transition was going to work, that's on them. It is unfair to just back out completely without a transition plan in place. If you raise your child to marry young and do kollel, you have to walk the walk and do things on your end to make it happen. If you don't want that then don't raise them that way. I was supported the first two years of marriage and not because of just kollel but because we were both in college. My husband graduated first, support tapered off but didn't end until I graduated and started working a year later. This was discussed and planned from the start. OP should make a plan for ending it. The details of the plan, I can't say, that's up to op and whatever details she knows about her own life. But she chose to support her kids in kollel, she has a responsibility to see it through to the end, which includes a reasonable transition plan, not a simple goodbye, its done now.

sitting

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 2:36 pm

if u enjoy giving why dont u give for something u enjoy thereby "freeing up" money for them to use for essentials. for example my mother pays for my kids shoes twice a yr. all of them get 1 or 2 pairs as needed. she will pay for my cleaner (directly a set amount a mth into my account to pay for it).
why dont u do somethibf like that? dafka pay for "extras" not the bills which they shld leanr to budget and pay for themselves.

amother

Silver

Sun, Jun 14 2015, 6:55 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I totally agree with Zaq's posits, but I want to address silver and the transition issues. If this is the system you use, and there is a date certain by which support is cut off, isn't it incumbent upon the couple to figure out how they are going to transition?

I think naturalmom5 explained it well. In a community where parents expect to support their children at the start of the marriage, they have to stand by that belief and do things on their end to carry it out. To do otherwise is cruel to the kids YOU instilled those values in. Transition has to be figured out, but it is something that needs to be discussed during engagement, and it's a discussion that has to take place between both the parents and the couple. The couple has to ultimately figure things out, but the parents have to be clear on the expectations. You also have to remember, some of these couples are very sheltered and can't necessarily be expected to just figure it out (yeah, I know, they're old enough to be married and blah blah, but just understand that this is the reality in this particular culture). Too often, parents will say something like "we will offer 5 years of support" and nobody thinks beyond that because 5 years is just soooo far off. But nobody told the couple that they will probably need to start some sort of training before those 5 years are up etc. And what do they mean by 5 years? Full support then nothing at 5 years and one day? Full support plus X time of weaning off? 4 years full support, then using year 5 to transition? Too many families don't discuss these details. Tough love is great for when you're dealing with shameless leeching; but where YOU agreed to the situation, where YOU went along with the system, where the couple is doing what they were "supposed to" do, well, the right way to do it is with a real exit plan, not just turning off the spigot when you're tired of leaving it on.