S/O of S/O of babies

OOTforlife

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:03 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I know a few men who begged their wives to get on bc but they refused possibly because of pressure or selfishness. Yes these women are selfish. The husband feels neglected, and realises the children are not being looked after properly but his wife keeps on having kids.

Yes they are committing a crime.

How well do you know these men that they are confiding in you about their shalom bayis issues and family planning? And hopefully you realize you only heard one side of the story and have no idea what's actually happening in the entirety of their marriage.

Sounds like you are completely absolving these men of any responsibility for producing these children and for the quality of their care.

heidi

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:08 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

The level of dysfunction was such that you think the children in question would have been better off not being born?

I'm not going to win a prize for organized on-top-of-it mom. That's not my strength. But I am a loving, caring mother who values each of her children and recognizes them as individuals. I drop a lot of balls, forget to send supplies, and don't send perfectly balanced packed lunches. I'm not super-responsive to teachers because I have social anxiety that makes those interactions extremely difficult for me, and because I've learned that many of the things teachers feel should be my priority are actually not all that important. (I don't mind if my child gets a B, really, as long as they are happy in class. I don't think homework is the be-all-and-end-all of school, and think it should be the child's responsibility, not the mother's.)

I still don't think I'd be doing my kids any favors by not having them.

Oh, and I'm a better mother now as I hit the high single digits as I was when I had just one or two.

It would eat my heart out to neglect the things that you neglect.
So for me it's hard to understand why you think more children are better than fewer but more paid attention to children.

amother

Black

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:12 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

I personally try not to judge, and certainly don't say things like that aloud.

I do believe that it is exceptionally hard to raise a family of ten well, at least in this day and age. Fifty or a hundred years ago, it was enough that the kids survived. Today, people expect a lot more out of parents.

Raising a huge family well requires a number of factors - healthy, easy going parents; healthy, easy going children; solid income; support; and at least one parent with a lot of extra emotional and physical energy. When all these factors come together, or at least most of them, you can have a successful huge family. The truth is though, that it is not the norm for all these factors to co-exist.

ETA- even then, it's extremely hard to be present emotionally for all the kids. You will be busy diapering and nursing when your teens need you to take them shopping and have long chats with them.

A well known parenting expert and child psychologist (R Spetner) I sometimes consult with teaches in her parenting seminar that each child needs 10 minutes a day, of enjoyable undivided attention, from a parent, unless they’re going through something big, then might need more, and you can work it into the day.
My younger kids get it each one as they come home from school, older daughter as we prepare lunches together, 11 yr old son when he sits in the front passenger seat and I drive him to school etc etc.
I work this individual time into my day.

dankbar

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:12 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

I didn't mean literally remember. Or at least not just remember. I meant that there is so much to do. Birthdays, chauffeuring to friends, homework, appointments, doctors, dentists, tutors, shopping. You can pencil all this in the calendar as much as you want, but you also need to DO it.

I don't believe a mother can do this for 14 children properly, UNLESS she is a SAHM with full time help, and her dh is around every evening to help chauffeur and sit with kids who need homework help etc. AND her kids are not especially demanding. AND she has boundless energy, to sit with a depressed teen and chat at 11 pm rather than curl up and collapse, or to drive her 12 yr old all over town to look for a purim costume before she has a breakdown - just energy for all the extra things life demands.

In smaller families moms are more busy with these stuff not less yes running around to get perfect costume or celebrating big bdays or whatever else you mentioned like setting up play dates etc.
In large families, older sisters assist younger ones with homework.
Purim costume shopping is own box at home or you put together something homemade from stuff at home
Birthdays if celebrated is just mom's baking of cake or cupcakes anyway it's for child's bday served on Shabbos together with own siblings
Playdates, no need, enough instant company on hand.
Who says these families are not happy, even if they keep it low.

I am talking about experience, I had a single child with big break to next & also close together. & other with a quite a gap.
The ones that have large gap, I always needed to keep busy or get them company, because they are always bored.
The ones close together entertain each others & don't need outside company.
The single child with every new toy was still bored because no one to play with.
The close ones don't need that many toys because they have each others.
Each child Hashem destined exactly where to be for their tafkid

amother

Smokey

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:13 pm

heidi wrote:

It would eat my heart out to neglect the things that you neglect.
So for me it's hard to understand why you think more children are better than fewer but more paid attention to children.

I only have 3 kids, but I don't think the things she listed are a huge deal and it certainly wouldn't eat my heart out to neglect them some, although I think I usually do OK with supplies and my husband sends OK lunches. So it's not just about the number of kids.

amother

Lemon

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:37 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

I don't believe a mother can do this for 14 children properly, UNLESS she is a SAHM with full time help, and her dh is around every evening to help chauffeur and sit with kids who need homework help etc. AND her kids are not especially demanding. AND she has boundless energy, to sit with a depressed teen and chat at 11 pm rather than curl up and collapse, or to drive her 12 yr old all over town to look for a purim costume before she has a breakdown - just energy for all the extra things life demands.

You underestimate SAHM! They don't need all that you mentioned to parent 14 kids well if they are SAHM.

observer

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 12:39 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Because we all know that somethings got to give.

True, but some things can give and that's fine. So my house is not a museum. And they may have to take clean socks from the basket of washed laundry, that I haven't gotten to putting away. But... I sit on the floor with my kids and play with them. And I have heart to hearts with my older kids. And I serve them nutritious meals. And we laugh together.

amother

Linen

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 3:05 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

You underestimate SAHM! They don't need all that you mentioned to parent 14 kids well if they are SAHM.

My DH is the oldest of 14 kids kah. His father works full time and his mother is a stay at home mom. Each child feels loved and cared for. Their house is clean and neat, kids are served breakfast, lunchband dinner daily. Clothes are washed daily...

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 5:38 pm

I think the most important is to be honest with yourself about what you can handle. I know personally that I am not cut out to handle a huge family. I’m not the calmest, have terrible pregnancies, etc
And also, everyone’s situation is different.
How much help you have and your financial situation are also big factors.
My neighbor has 13 kids, a huge beautiful home and 2 live-in full time cleaning help plus a baby nurse so that’s definitely a huge help. (Truthfully, even with all that I still wouldn’t be able to handle 13 kids)
If you’re able to afford a lot of cleaning help, or have a husband that helps out a lot, or family that can help are out - All these things need to be taken into consideration.
I think a lot of people get pressured into having big families even though they are not necessarily equipped to deal it.

amother

Red

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 5:46 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

One of them is my father. And I heard both sides of the story. Well now he can laugh once weve all grown up but it was very overwhelming and he had to be there most of the time to help. And even with him around a lot, they didnt cope too well most of the time.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 5:46 pm

I grew up in a 10+ family. We did not have family support. We did not have cleaning ladies ever. We were not well-off at all. We lived in a small 3-bedroom house. Some of us slept in the basement.

I am happy my mother had each and every one of us, and am working on a large family of my own (also without much family support - we live too far away - and with little finances).

Remember "it's all about priorities"? Well, for us, having and joyfully raising as many Jewish neshamos as possible is a priority.

amother

Plum

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 6:03 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I agree with you. I have a friend with 12 children, she is an amazing mother and has a wonderful and close relationship with all of her children.

I have a smaller family and have extremely difficult pregnancies. I don’t think we could handle 12 children and some of these comments are pressuring. I know each child is an incredible gift. I would still rather a smaller family than a very large, but somewhat neglected one (which I believe would be the case for ME).

I have deep respect for these parents, but I don’t think everyone is capable of raising such a large family.

amother

Black

Thu, Jan 30 2020, 6:07 pm

dankbar wrote:

I had a single child with big break to next & also close together. & other with a quite a gap.
The ones that have large gap, I always needed to keep busy or get them company, because they are always bored.
The ones close together entertain each others & don't need outside company.
The single child with every new toy was still bored because no one to play with.
The close ones don't need that many toys because they have each others.

This!!
I have mine close in age and my friend has a four- five yr gap between hers.
I’m not joking when I say that she works way harder than me.