Where do you struggle in your emunah?

amother

White

Tue, Feb 25 2020, 11:49 pm

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

I don’t know your mother but it’s more than likely that she did suffer and did a great job covering it up.

And let me give you some unsolicited advice.
Never tell a person that suffering is a choice.
It’s beyond cruel.

It's pointless to speculate about another poster's mother. It's altogether possible that Mommyg8's mother fully accepted her situation and did not view it as suffering but instead focused on the positive in her situation. I'm commenting because I also had a relative like this.

Mommyg8

Tue, Feb 25 2020, 11:53 pm

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I agree with you on this.
Some people are able to rise above. There are some extraordinarily strong people. I admire and stand in awe of them.

But. Some people are not, in the moment. And they are suffering. And I don't believe they should be made to feel like it's their fault they are suffering on top of everything else. I can think of a very bad medical incident in my own life when I was a teenager. Looking back on it now, I see how it changed and shaped me. I learned a lot about myself and human nature of other s even if it took years for me to fully process. But at the time it was excruciating, I cried from the discomfort every single day for probably a year until the healing was advanced (I read a medical research article a few years ago that said a certain percentage of people who undergo this either commit suicide or have a nervous breakdown. I felt very validated). Yes, I was suffering. No it's not because I chose to suffer.

It's not a question of fault. I agree that it would be beyond cruel to make someone feel guilty on top of their suffering. Obviously there are situations where these thoughts and feelings are beyond our control. As you mentioned, there are some very strong people who can withstand almost anything, but most of us can't.

However. It is also, and just as cruel, to imply that we are passive in our suffering, and we have no choices in how we perceive life's challenges. Some things, as you mentioned, are beyond horrific and there are no choices. But it is very often a choice, in how we perceive things, to decide if we want to suffer - or not. Most people don't go through such horrific suffering. Most people are not forced to deal with these kinds of choices. For the vast majority of people and the vast majority of situations, it is often possible to see challenges as just that - challenges - and not suffering. Maybe not all the time. Maybe not even most of the time. But sometimes - yes - because we are greater than we think.

I think it is important to know that such a choice exists. Most of the time.

amother

Amber

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 12:05 am

Maybe it depends on how you define some of these terms. How do you define choice, how do you define suffering. I think the choice I made then was to maintain my sanity. I think that was the only thing in my control. I did not have control over whether I suffered. I simply did.
Someone at the time (who meant to be helpful, I know) told me that I should daven for the discomfort to go away. I couldn't even begin to verbalize to her why I simply couldn't. Someone else told me that she heard a shiur by a rav (who I completely and highly respect) how people use feeling sick as an excuse to watch TV and they shouldn't. Watching tv as a distraction was the only way I got through those endless nights. But I couldn't explain to her how wrong that was, in my situation.
I think people can make these statements about choices when it is something within a normal realm of something or else they have personal experience with.
Some situations or sufferings just need to be endured, you just have to get through it. Maybe that's what Hashem wants. We don't really know.

small bean

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 7:48 am

I was actually going to post that. We should define suffer.

Suffer to me is a reaction to the pain.

I am not defining suffer as pain from the circumstance. I'm not saying that some circumstances are not extraordinarily painful either physically or emotionally or both.

I think that for example childbirth, we can all agree that there are people who suffer through it, people who rise above it and don't feel like the pain was unbearable. And that is because different people experience pain differently.

So the person who can't put bread on her table can be in such terrible pain, that she says she's suffering and another person who can't put bread on her table while she is in pain, she is not suffering, she is taking a different outlook.

These choices are initially made subconsciously, but the more you take your painful struggles and stare them in the face, the more conscious your choice on how you will deal with the pain will be made.

There are people like mommygr8's mother who were in tremendous pain and did not feel suffering. It is a conscious choice to rise above the pain.

This is not judgmental on people who are suffering or who suffered. We have all been in situations, where we let our pain dictate. It is normal. But knowing that there is a choice, is important to connecting and living mindfully in the moment.

ETA this is a discussion about emunah. We are not talking about someones specific pain and trivializing it.

small bean

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 9:24 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I think you are way over simplifying things.

I don't know the situation you were in. But you should look back and think wow I was great. I made a concious choice to maintain my sanity. I think that is huge. I think that watching tv to get through the night is amazing given the temendous pain you were in. The pain wasnt optional. You can't opt out of pain, unless you end your life. The fact that you rose above the pain and made a decision to do whatever you can, to maintain sanity is amazing and you should feel good about yourself.

When people write, they are writing in simplest terms, but anyone who wants to understand gets what im saying is complex.

amother

Amber

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 9:41 am

Not talking about myself here, but...
I think your explanation (while sincere and well meaning) would be very patronizing and painful to somebody who lo aleinu finds out she is infertile or her daughter is. Or loses a child. Etc. A variety of things that cause suffering. Yes they may believe this is what Hashem intends but that doesn't mean they don't suffer. And they won't spend their life grappling with it.
These are concepts that Moshe Rabbeinu did not fully understand so I don't see how we possibly could.
To get back to Viktor Frankl, his idea was that people can endure suffering as long as they can find meaning in it. He used personal examples from the concentration camps.
To deny that suffering exists, that people don't need to suffer unless they agree to it, is simply false.
I also believe it does a disservice to people in pain to put forth the idea that they should just force themselves to get over it. That is so personal and nobody has the right to tell them that. Obviously I'm not talking about every day normal life challenges.
One thing I can see why I needed to go through that ordeal is to learn compassion and empathy for people going through hard times. But because of that, I really have a hard time when I see or hear glib explanations from people who don't really have an understanding of certain things. It bothers me very much on behalf of suffering people.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 9:47 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

I hear this. I think it's important in these threads to say, this is what has worked for me. And some things that worked for other people didn't work for me. Take what resonates and put it in your toolkit, and if it doesn't resonate but you like and respect the source, accept the possibility that one day it might, but don't beat yourself up if it doesn't.

small bean

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 10:38 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

You clearly misunderstood my point. My point is not people don't suffer. My point is people can rise above their suffering.

If you go to the holocaust, it is tremendous pain that none of us can imagine, but there are stories of people who genuinely did not feel they were suffering. Did they feel all the pain, yes they did.

I beleive where you use the word suffer, I use the word pain. If you connect to your pain, you are amazing. If you survive your pain you are amazing.

I believe there is a purpose to extreme pain in this world. I beleive people have to go through extremely difficult times.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 10:44 am

small bean wrote:

I think that when it comes to the Holocaust, what boosts my emunah is that people could go on afterwards. A friend was just telling me how her grandparent, who was an overflowing font of emunah, did go through a crisis of faith the year after the war. (I heard this grandparent describe concentration camp. Few if any transcendent moments, it was just a matter of survival.) But then picked up and created a magnificent dynasty.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 11:02 am

It is pointless to talk about how to accept suffering.

Mentioning infertility is clueless if you never went through it.

Explaining away childbirth is clueless because it is different for everyone. (it is much more difficult for motherless daughters or any person with PTSD or weakened immune system etc.) It is not always about tolerating pain differently.

I am using the word "beyond cruel" from another poster; It is beyond cruel to explain coping with suffering to someone else.

The only reaction to suffering, in my opinion, is to be a true friend and respectful to the divorcee, aguna, childless, handicapped person, single person etc.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 11:06 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Here's a story. I don't know if it would have been my reaction, but it's something to think about: Rebbetzin Kramer of Holy Woman fame told Sara Yoheved Rigler that Auschwitz wasn't a bad place. SYR was sure she heard wrong, or maybe Rebbetzin Kramer had dementia. Then she explained herself. As long as she was in a place where she could do Hashem's will, then by definition it wasn't a bad place.

I think this story is hurtful to many people.
My grandparents went through auschwitz; we relived the trauma.
Please, please.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 11:49 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I think this story is hurtful to many people.
My grandparents went through auschwitz; we relived the trauma.
Please, please.

Apologies. I was debating telling that story and will think twice before sharing it again.
But it gives me the opportunity to say something else: When we - who are are going through difficult challenges but nowhere near that - hear these stories, we aren't supposed to beat ourselves up and say, well, if she could say that, then how can I even begin to complain. Or in general, say, it's not the camps, how can I complain. What we can do is say, this works for some people, maybe it will work for me too. In this case, to remember that the goal in life is serving Hashem and if I can do it in these circumstances, there's meaning.

I by no means meant to diminish anyone's suffering. See my earlier post about my friend's grandparent's experiences in the camps and stuggles with emunah after the war, and I knew this person; this person was considered a role model in every area of life possible.

amother

Amber

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 11:55 am

Agree burlywood.
And I recently reread Holy Woman actually and there was something about the way it was presented that bothered me this time.
Rebbetzin Kramer was one of those amazing people no doubt.
But I disliked the way the author glossed over certain things it just came across as preachy and glib to me, especially since it was obvious to me now the tremendous pain she endured not having children biologically. This was not something I fully picked up on when I first read it 10 years ago or whenever it came out.
But since then, in my own personal life, I've dealt with personal pain that makes me more aware of the magnitude of others. And it struck me more strongly this time.
It's like when kids nowadays are only exposed to the "inspirational" holocaust type story, those happened of course, but it is whitewashing the true horror to present that side only.

amother

Wheat

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 12:38 pm

Im responding to the OP. I chose other. My biggest struggle with emunah is in regard having hard/strained relationships with others. There is currently someone treating my family very badly. I need to remind myself over and over that this is from Hashem and no human can cause any hurt to me that Hashem didnt intend. I want to be resentful that someone can act so horribly so its hard to constantly remind myself...

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 2:19 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Hugs.
What I think I would also tell myself is, bH I'm not that person.

heidi

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 2:21 pm

In response to OP's question, my biggest struggle with emunah is that everything Hashem does is for the good. I believe Hashem has his reasons. I don't believe that the bigger picture is always good. For example, a 3 year old losing his mother, baby sister and brother in a car crash is not good. It never will be. There is no scenario in this world or the next that will make that good. Necessary for some other purpose that we can't understand, maybe. But good? No.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 26 2020, 2:30 pm

heidi wrote:

This just might be the ultimate struggle.
Hashem creating the world to do good, olam chessed yibane, is such a cornerstone of our belief - as elucidated by the Ramchal, the Tehillim I quoted, Vehalachta bidrachav's classic explanation of Just as He is rachum, so should you be (continuing with other positive attributes). Oh, and the 13 middos of Hashem.

So it makes sense that the biggest challenge in life is in just that area of belief.