Inappropriate behavior in the tanach

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 8:43 am

zaq wrote:

If David didn't sin, what was Natan's speech about the poor man with one lamb all about? Surely David didn't just eat all the strudel at the kiddush.

He did orchestrate things to be able to have Batsheva. But there were technicalities that made what he did NOT cross the line to the worst interpretation.

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 8:50 am

Aurora wrote:

Not trying to shut it down. I thought op was trying to find something easy on which to give a dvar Torah, and this was unexpectedly more than she wanted to tackle.

I do think that the question of how we regard problematic actions by gedolim in Tanakh is an incredibly valuable question. It's just that if you are looking for a shiur topic, and this isn't it, can I help you find one you like better?

We could compile a hefty list. Rav Hirsch says on the pasuk vayigdelu hanearim, that the boys (Yaakov and Esav) grew up, that Yitzchak made a serious chinuch mistake in giving them the exact same chinuch and it was only when they grew up that their differences were apparent. (I've heard that Yitzchak knew Eisav was no tzaddik but Eisav acted in a way that made him appear sincere and a good future "Zevulun" for Yaakov.)

Shimshon followed his eyes instead of his brain.
We could go on and on and on.

But rather than compile a list, instead, what we should do is, when we encounter these situations in the course of learning the sugya we unpack and learn the lessons. I don't think that a shiur on "Mistakes great people made" is in and of itself constructive.

As Rabbi Reuven Leuchter says, Hashem is always curious about how we'll react. He (the Rav) was baffled by CW committing suicide. Because even at that point, when everything was out in the open, Hashem was curious about what he would do. Had he done the right thing - confessed, expressed regret - he might not have had a glorious future, but he would have done the right thing in the circumstances he found himself in, and that's what we're supposed to do in life.

Aurora

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 9:19 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I did not suggest a shiur on "mistakes great people made." What I was saying was "how do we regard (and/or learn) from these mistakes"?

Those are two different focuses.

shaqued_almond

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 9:26 am

Aurora wrote:

I did not suggest a shiur on "mistakes great people made." What I was saying was "how do we regard (and/or learn) from these mistakes"?

Those are two different focuses.

I understood you. Since the shiur is supposed to be short idk how much I can unpack in that time.

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 9:46 am

Aurora wrote:

I did not suggest a shiur on "mistakes great people made." What I was saying was "how do we regard (and/or learn) from these mistakes"?

Those are two different focuses.

I apologize. I meant to make that clear, just as a general statement but not to insinuate that that was anyone's intent.

Aurora

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 8:23 pm

If you want to look at other cases like this, look at Shlomo Hamelech. He transgressed all the special mitzvoth of kings because he said he was so wise that the reasons for these mitzvoth didn't apply to him - he was too smart to make the kinds of errors that are the exact reason those mitzvoth exist.

However, he made exactly those kinds of errors after transgressing all the special mitzvoth of kings.

From David Hamelech: Nobody is so great he (or she) cannot sin. Nobody is so far beyond redemption that he or she is beyond the power of Teshuvah.
From Shlomo Hamelech: You can't say that "I know the reason for the mitzvah, and since it doesn't apply, I don't have to consider myself bound by the mitzvah. I'm too smart for this." The mitzvah still applies. Even to the wisest of humans. And one should not try to rationalize away mitzvoth.

Greenapple

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 11:22 pm

The gemara writes that the bigger Madreiga a person is, the bigger Yetzer Hora he has. Most of the times in Tanach, the ppl wanted to do things with a higher purpose or deeper intention and for whatever reason it didn't work out, it was even considered a sin.

The Arizal writes the reason Shlomo Hamelach married 1000 wives. He wanted to be Mesakin Netsitsim from every nation thereby bringing the world to an Oilem Hatiken. Obviously it wasn't the time yet.

The halacha is/was man can take upto 4 wives and a king upto 18. Therefore In his later years, Shlomo Hamelech turned a blind eye on his wives Avoda Zora and this was considered as if he himself sinned.

Think of the Shevatim selling Yosef or the Dor Hamidbar. There was far more deeper Kavanus in their 'so to call' sins that we can fathom within our little black n white box.

Aurora

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 11:24 pm

Greenapple wrote:

If we can't understand, then what is the point of learning about it?

Greenapple

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 11:35 pm

Aurora wrote:

If we can't understand, then what is the point of learning about it?

Everything that is written is for us to take a Mussar Haskel.

In the case of Shlomo Hamelech,we can learn that if the smartest person thought he'll be smarter than the torah (marrying 1000 times vs 18 that was permitted) and it won't hurt him,, and as we saw in the end he ended up with the sin of avodah Zora we pashuta ppl shouldn't make the mistake and think we can get away, will be stronger understand better etc If something is assur, its assur.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 14 2022, 6:51 am

Greenapple wrote:

One of the speakers on Nach Yomi - Rachel Besser? - posited that same idea, that Shlomo Hamelech's approach was a global vision one. He wanted to bring about the second part of Aleinu and bring the whole world to Hashem. (Think of his dedication of the BHMK.) But yes, he thought he was smart enough to avoid the pitfalls of the method he chose to do it.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 14 2022, 6:52 am

Greenapple wrote:

The only reason why Hashem made David Hamelach sin with Batsheva was because he wanted to show for all generations that even the big David Hamelach sinned and there is a way back with tshuvah.

Pretty comforting, hu?

Actually there's more. This was one of a chain of episodes of not lechatchila pairings - Lot and his daughters, Yehuda and Tamar - in Moshiach's ancestry.

And welcome!