Frustrated by software mfr's unresponsive attitude.

Choirmistress

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 2:28 pm

Quote:

Why don’t you try your font of choice in another program and see if the problem persists?

Which font are you having issues with? If it is a font without full nikkud support, you may just need a different font, even if you prefer this one.

Perhaps try downloading one of the fonts I linked and see if they work well enough for you. Full nikkud is not a feature in most fonts.

Hi, Aster. I don't know how to use any program but MS Word.
The worst problems are with Drugulin and Siddur. Even with the ones that work -- Ezra, Frank Curled Lamed, and Frank Ruehl CLM -- certain letter shapes and depth of some nekudot are off.
Thanks for the links. I think I shall indeed try them.
Your responses and the time and effort you have put into them are appreciated.

amother

Navyblue

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 2:38 pm

I would personally consider looking at a more professional program that is designed to do what you want. Word is a great basic program but it isn't professional level. Most people would be happy with the results from word for basic hebrew.
I understand you want to make it work for you in word, but I don't think it's able to do that. Either you compromise and work with what they do have, or you try something else.

Choirmistress

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 2:53 pm

Quote:

Thanks, Navyblue. Any suggestions for such a professional program? I tried Davka but my subscription/licence ran out and I can't find the CD to reload it.
I have, in fact, been making do with Times New Roman's Hebrew "section". But for the purposes of making even a partial livelihood from typesetting, proofreading, and editing, I really need a font that looks like that in a traditional siddur. The closest I've seen is Drugulin.
I think I'll go back to the Feedback Hub and ask MS staff why so many people with whom I have corresponded seem to have no problems with their Hebrew fonts while I still do.
Anyway, your input is appreciated.

amother

Aster

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 2:58 pm

It will probably be worth your while to invest the time in learning a new program. It will likely be more helpful to you than compiling lists of problems with a program that just isn't designed to do what you want it to do.

Neither Drugulin nor Siddur (or any of the other fonts you mention) were designed by Microsoft. At the most, they bundled these fonts and distributed them as a service to its users, so you don't have to search for Hebrew fonts on your own.

As far as I know, Drugulin and Siddur are both TrueType fonts which simply are not able to provide the amount of contextual alternates that proper nikkud positioning would require.

You may prefer a font from the Taamey Culmus collection, which are designed to support trop and nikkud positioning. https://culmus.sourceforge.io/......html

amother

Aster

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 3:03 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

I have, in fact, been making do with Times New Roman's Hebrew "section". But for the purposes of making even a partial livelihood from typesetting, proofreading, and editing, I really need a font that looks like that in a traditional siddur. The closest I've seen is Drugulin.
I think I'll go back to the Feedback Hub and ask MS staff why so many people with whom I have corresponded seem to have no problems with their Hebrew fonts while I still do.
Anyway, your input is appreciated.

Choirmistress, nobody has a problem with these fonts either because they are not using nikkud, or if they do, it is for FUNCTION, not presentation. They don't care if the nikkud is not centered, or if it overlaps the final letters. It is there, and the words are legible. So it is working for them the same way it is working for you, it is your expectations that are the problem here.

Drugulin is just not capable of what you want it to be capable of. Perhaps you can hire a font designer to edit it to your specifications, or (as I would recommend) choose a different font that is made to do what you want.

Even then you will likely have issues, but if you use better software you can manually fix incorrect spacing in most cases.

ETA: Here is an alpha version (that means still has a lot of issues) of a version of Drugulin that supports full nikkud. Again, there will be problems, but it will likely work better than the version you have. https://culmus.sourceforge.io/developers.html
(actually last updated a few weeks ago, after a 20 year hiatus!)

amother

Dahlia

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 3:07 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Quote:

You should really stop reaching out to Microsoft. That is not a question they could realistically be expected to answer.

The answer really is that most people don't use the Hebrew fonts included with Microsoft beyond the basics. For more specific needs, people use other fonts or other tools.

You can keep getting upset with mIcrosoft for not meeting your needs, or stop wasting your time and theirs, and focus on moving forward and finding an alternative solution.

cbsp

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 5:02 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

Quote:

You can take a screenshot of the file and upload it as an image.

Sorry, Aster, I don't know how to do either. They are both in MS Word.

I'm cbsp, not Aster Smile

Open your word document and zoom in on the screen so that you have a good sampling of the area you're finding troublesome.

Press Alt - print screen (the key on your keyboard might be labeled "prnt scrn") If you're on a laptop you may need to press a function key to get to the print screen function (so on my laptop I press Alt-Fn-Prnt Scrn). This copies a screenshot of the active window to the computer clipboard. It won't tell you that anything was copied, you'll find out if it worked in the next step.

Immediately open Paint (comes with windows) or any other simple paint program. Paste into a new document. (if it doesn't paste then it's possible you didn't copy it correctly. I like to keep the clipboard panel open when I take the screenshot because sometimes it shows up there). Assuming you were successful crop the image so that you only save what you don't mind other people seeing. Save as a .jpg file.

Then you can upload this image to the thread. (there are other posts on imamother.com that explain how to do that, I don't want to overload this post)

amother

Taupe

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 5:16 pm

Choirmistress wrote:

But for the purposes of making even a partial livelihood from typesetting, proofreading, and editing, I really need a font that looks like that in a traditional siddur.

If you want to make a living doing typesetting, you will need to use a typesetting program. I don’t work with Hebrew so I don’t know what a good option would be, but MS word isn’t it. MS word doesn’t even do well with English. I use Vellum instead.

amother

Aster

Wed, Mar 01 2023, 5:20 pm

Choirmistress, here is an example of me using Drugulin in TextEdit on Mac (not exactly Microsoft Word, but similar idea).

And here is the same text using Adobe InDesign.

It would never occur to me to complain to Apple that TextEdit doesn't handle advanced typography well. I use the right tool for that.

ETA: And here is the same text in TextEdit using the updated version of Drugulin I linked above:
As you can see, still not perfect.

So as I see it, you have 4 choices:

1) Use Drugulin (either version) in InDesign or similar software

2) Use the newer version of Drugulin in Microsoft Word and make your peace with the issues

3) Offer to pay the designer (contact information in that link) to update it (he knows about the issues but is doing this on a volunteer basis, so may not get around to fixing them anytime soon)

4) Use a different font which works well on Microsoft Word.