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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
Do you believe in supporting a newly married couple?
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| Yes |
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43% |
[ 82 ] |
| No |
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56% |
[ 107 ] |
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| Total Votes : 189 |
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watergirl
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 Fri, Aug 18 2023, 8:52 am
| amother Firethorn wrote: | There is very little choice today. The girls that are not being supported are either:
1. Marrying working boys
2. Marrying learning boys but take the yolk of parnasa on themselves. This requires a lot of perseverance, being mitapek b’muat, and is not always feasible.
I hope to help my kids when they get married, but with limitations (a specific budget, no unlimited credit card, and with an expiration date if I commit to something). Once that year or years (depending on the child) passes I would hope, if Hashem enables me, to give them extra cash when I can (birthdays, YT, simchos etc). It would bring me so much joy. |
You make these two options seem like they are bad and unsavory choices. They are completely normal, honorable, and respectable choices. I give so much credit to the man who works to earn his living and still makes time to learn. He works, the wife works, and they are like the rest of us who require a full time dual income to sustain ourselves.
It's wrong to make a system in which working boys (who are really men) are looked down on, and able bodied boys (not men) are sitting and driving their fathers in law into debt.
I've said this so many times, and then I heard Halacha Headlines say the same thing - shame on a system that makes fathers think they need to buy a boy for their daughters, especially when they cant afford it. And shame on the boys who sit at their tables, eating food paid for by their in-laws, knowing that chicken is causing their wife's parents to be in a bad place financially.
I don't understand why there are people in our midst who think everyone should live like the wealthy. If you can afford it, do it. If not, not. And there is nothing in the world wrong with it. It's honorable to live within your means. And I believe it's the wrong message we are giving our kids to promote an idea that it's shameful or bad to work for a living.
Edited to clarify - I think it's beautiful and amazing to learn full time if that is the desire of the husband and wife, and if it's through parental support (if they can afford it without suffering) or through the wife supporting her husband financially and she wants to with her whole heart - amazing! Beautiful! I am against making it seem like a bad thing to not learn full time and instead to work and learn when he can, either because he wants to, or because he can't afford otherwise. We need all types to support Klal Yisrael.
Last edited by watergirl on Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Peony
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 9:09 am
| watergirl wrote: | You make these two options seem like they are bad and unsavory choices. They are completely normal, honorable, and respectable choices. I give so much credit to the man who works to earn his living and still makes time to learn. He works, the wife works, and they are like the rest of us who require a full time dual income to sustain ourselves.
It's wrong to make a system in which working boys (who are really men) are looked down on, and able bodied boys (not men) are sitting and driving their fathers in law into debt.
I've said this so many times, and then I heard Halacha Headlines say the same thing - shame on a system that makes fathers think they need to buy a boy for their daughters, especially when they cant afford it. And shame on the boys who sit at their tables, eating food paid for by their in-laws, knowing that chicken is causing their wife's parents to be in a bad place financially.
I don't understand why there are people in our midst who think everyone should live like the wealthy. If you can afford it, do it. If not, not. And there is nothing in the world wrong with it. It's honorable to live within your means. And I believe it's the wrong message we are giving our kids to promote an idea that it's shameful or bad to work for a living. |
Can you shout this from the rooftops please? We are promoting so many wrong ideals, and then we come along with rationalizations to try to support it. The Torah puts the parnossoh expectations onto the man, nor does it encourage the masses to live a kollel lifestyle on the backs of others. Not only are we distorting the expectations for our children, when a man actually wants to step up and fulfill his responsibilities - we label him as second class!!
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amother
cornflower
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 9:11 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Will the boys accept someone who wants to teach, or are the girls pressured to get advanced degrees for high paying jobs? |
BH Queens schools pay well. I have a bunch of friends who teach. Some make it work with government programs etc.
You're not wrong though. It's definitely harder to get a date these days as a teacher. But if you ask a shaila we're told teaching can be proper hishtadlus. So its the boys issue of bitachon  . Kidding. Its because on the boys list there are also PTs, PAs or Computer Programmers and because of the lack of boys they can be choosy. Also what Ive seen a lot is people getting dual teaching/special ed degrees with a plan of going into special ed which doesn't end up happening.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 9:13 am
| amother Peony wrote: | | Can you shout this from the rooftops please? We are promoting so many wrong ideals, and then we come along with rationalizations to try to support it. The Torah puts the parnossoh expectations onto the man, nor does it encourage the masses to live a kollel lifestyle on the backs of others. Not only are we distorting the expectations for our children, when a man actually wants to step up and fulfill his responsibilities - we label him as second class!! |
In case anyone was betting how long it would take for me to post this, go ahead and have that drink: https://www.jewishmediaresourc.....aphor
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 9:14 am
| amother cornflower wrote: | BH Queens schools pay well. I have a bunch of friends who teach. Some make it work with government programs etc.
You're not wrong though. It's definitely harder to get a date these days as a teacher. But if you ask a shaila we're told teaching can be proper hishtadlus. So its the boys issue of bitachon . Kidding. Its because on the boys list there are also PTs, PAs or Computer Programmers and because of the lack of boys they can be choosy. Also what Ive seen a lot is people getting dual teaching/special ed degrees with a plan of going into special ed which doesn't end up happening. |
And not special education?
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amother
cornflower
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:09 am
Sorry not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if special education is better than teaching to the guys? I think so. Theres a lot more earning potential depending on what you do with your degree and if you go for a post masters. Though I do know someone who wouldn't go out with girls in social work or special ed but thats not very common and he's super type A, b'cheshboned, executive director type who probably crunched the numbers often.
Also special ed might be the most common degree here among the wives so that probably says something...
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Chayalle
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:24 am
| amother Lightpink wrote: | Assuming you are able and they are needy, why not?
Lets ask the opposite- if elderly parents need financial help - would you give it? Also assuming you are able. ( this is of course hypothetical)
Isnt covering the essentials for the young couple a form of tzedaka? (Not referring to sending the young couple to Italy....)
What bothers me more is the Shidduch process that forces parents to make financial committments beyond their abilities.
What happens after the wedding, when the parents can't afford to abide by their committments?
Are parents allowed to promise support of a higher level than they can afford and later renege? Is this a false promise? |
I really hate when people blame it on the Shidduch process. Parents are grownups, and they have choices. You can choose not to make financial commitments that are beyond your ability, and raise your kids to be aware of the choices they will make as a result of choices you make.
Our girls know that as their parents we will support them in any way we can, but as a Kollel couple, that will not translate to financially supporting them. (There are many ways to be a supportive parent. It's not only financial.) They are free to make their own choices as to who they marry, with what we will be able to give them. If they are able to support and want to, they can date learning boys. At the same time we have not raised them to think that marrying a frum, Torah-values working boy is a b'dieved she'bi'dieved. It doesn't say anything like that anywhere in the Torah. And they have no obligation to support someone in learning - as the Mashgiach of BMG told me, there's nothing wrong hashkafically with a girl who wants to marry and raise a family, and have her husband be the one supporting her.
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amother
Honey
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:30 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I really hate when people blame it on the Shidduch process. Parents are grownups, and they have choices. You can choose not to make financial commitments that are beyond your ability, and raise your kids to be aware of the choices they will make as a result of choices you make.
Our girls know that as their parents we will support them in any way we can, but as a Kollel couple, that will not translate to financially supporting them. (There are many ways to be a supportive parent. It's not only financial.) They are free to make their own choices as to who they marry, with what we will be able to give them. If they are able to support and want to, they can date learning boys. At the same time we have not raised them to think that marrying a frum, Torah-values working boy is a b'dieved she'bi'dieved. It doesn't say anything like that anywhere in the Torah. And they have no obligation to support someone in learning - as the Mashgiach of BMG told me, there's nothing wrong hashkafically with a girl who wants to marry and raise a family, and have her husband be the one supporting her. |
I would really hope not. That is what the kesuba actually says. And the torah.
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giftedmom
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:30 am
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I believe in emotionally supporting. Generous gifts if we have the means. But bh I am not part of this system of dependence.
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amother
Lightpink
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:37 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I really hate when people blame it on the Shidduch process. Parents are grownups, and they have choices. You can choose not to make financial commitments that are beyond your ability, and raise your kids to be aware of the choices they will make as a result of choices you make.
. |
Absolutely, but I personally have seen many who choose to commit to support, then have to either renege or go deeper into debt.
Just like the school system that "forces us to lie" (I reference the thread on Monsey Vaad on technology) if we want our kids learning in a good yeshiva, the shadchan forces us to make financial commitments beyond our current salaries if we want the good boys as sons in law. If it hasnt happened to you, you are lucky. Its happened to plenty of people I know.
At the end of the day, you are right, no one is forcing us.
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Gt
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:41 am
I think there is no one answer for everyone.
Parents can and should choose what they do.
The kollel couples who are being supported should obviously be really learning and living a real kollel life.
The couples where one or both spouses is going for higher education should obviously working hard in school , getting good grades and living a simple life on their parent s dime.
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Chayalle
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:45 am
| amother Lightpink wrote: | Absolutely, but I personally have seen many who choose to commit to support, then have to either renege or go deeper into debt.
Just like the school system that "forces us to lie" (I reference the thread on Monsey Vaad on technology) if we want our kids learning in a good yeshiva, the shadchan forces us to make financial commitments beyond our current salaries if we want the good boys as sons in law. If it hasnt happened to you, you are lucky. Its happened to plenty of people I know.
At the end of the day, you are right, no one is forcing us. |
Again, this is shifting the blame.
Because you can redefine good boys. If you are choosing to want those types of boys as sons-in-law, then it's not the Shadchan forcing you to make that commitment, but rather, you are choosing it.
Or you can tell a Shadchan, thanks so much, but that's not what we are looking for.
Trust me. I had a Shadchan who tried to convince me that we need to promise 7 years of at least 2K monthly plus around 150-200K for a downpayment on a house. This, she told me, is standard if you want a "good boy". She also told me I can take DD's salary of the past few years, pretend it's mine, and hand that over as part of this "commitment".
We chose not to want the kind of gem who would need us to do that on behalf of our DD.
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amother
Seafoam
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:50 am
| Chayalle wrote: | Again, this is shifting the blame.
Because you can redefine good boys. If you are choosing to want those types of boys as sons-in-law, then it's not the Shadchan forcing you to make that commitment, but rather, you are choosing it.
Or you can tell a Shadchan, thanks so much, but that's not what we are looking for.
Trust me. I had a Shadchan who tried to convince me that we need to promise 7 years of at least 2K monthly plus around 150-200K for a downpayment on a house. This, she told me, is standard if you want a "good boy". She also told me I can take DD's salary of the past few years, pretend it's mine, and hand that over as part of this "commitment".
We chose not to want the kind of gem who would need us to do that on behalf of our DD. |
🤢 What an entitled baby. Definitely not good husband material!
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:56 am
| amother cornflower wrote: | Sorry not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if special education is better than teaching to the guys? I think so. Theres a lot more earning potential depending on what you do with your degree and if you go for a post masters. Though I do know someone who wouldn't go out with girls in social work or special ed but thats not very common and he's super type A, b'cheshboned, executive director type who probably crunched the numbers often.
Also special ed might be the most common degree here among the wives so that probably says something... |
Right. So special ed is better. And bH the field is growing to meet the need, but the non sn population needs teachers too.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 10:59 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I really hate when people blame it on the Shidduch process. Parents are grownups, and they have choices. You can choose not to make financial commitments that are beyond your ability, and raise your kids to be aware of the choices they will make as a result of choices you make.
. |
You're right, and yet, you can't deny what's been institutionalized and it makes things harder. Many shadchanim focus their energies on the low-hanging fruit, cookie-cutter 5+ years support type. That's ok, they're not the ones who'll be zoche to make your kids' shidduchim.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:00 am
| Chayalle wrote: | Again, this is shifting the blame.
Because you can redefine good boys. If you are choosing to want those types of boys as sons-in-law, then it's not the Shadchan forcing you to make that commitment, but rather, you are choosing it.
Or you can tell a Shadchan, thanks so much, but that's not what we are looking for.
Trust me. I had a Shadchan who tried to convince me that we need to promise 7 years of at least 2K monthly plus around 150-200K for a downpayment on a house. This, she told me, is standard if you want a "good boy". She also told me I can take DD's salary of the past few years, pretend it's mine, and hand that over as part of this "commitment".
We chose not to want the kind of gem who would need us to do that on behalf of our DD. |
In my immediately pp I was going to say, I'm sure you've experienced this firsthand: Shadchanim say the darnedest things. But I held myself back.
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amother
Begonia
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:24 am
No, no and no.
I am very chassidish, grew up in a chassidish community.
I'm very grateful that the kollel lifestyle is not part of the expectations in our community. There's other stuff I don't like, but this is insane.
I got married at 19, my husband was 19 1/2.
No one supported us.
My husband went out to work right away, I kept my full time job and we managed just fine.
It's 2 years later now and my husband is extremely responsible and understands the value of money precisely because no one was there to support us in the beginning.
I can say the same for most of my friends.
All of them got married super young, no support whatsoever and they had to work hard to get to where they are today.
I don't believe a couple even NEEDS the support in any way.
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amother
Brickred
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:30 am
I also think part of the problem, is that as stated above, the “top boys” are the learning learning boys. Who wants a bottom boy foe their daughter.
In reality, you have too learnings boys, but you also have top working boys.
Just because someone is working does not mean they are less intelligent, less driven, or less dedicated to Torah and mitzvot, and it definitely does not mean that they have poor middot and are not a mench and Baal chessed.
But, we have such a culture of oh a “top boy”. Does not everyone person have the right match for themselves. Dovid may be a perfect match for Sarah, but would be terrible for Chana. Does that make him not a catch for Sarah or does it make Chana defective and not a great girl? This is so ridiculous. People are individuals and should not be ranked. As my grandmother would say “a lid for every pot”.
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LovesHashem
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:32 am
| watergirl wrote: | You make these two options seem like they are bad and unsavory choices. They are completely normal, honorable, and respectable choices. I give so much credit to the man who works to earn his living and still makes time to learn. He works, the wife works, and they are like the rest of us who require a full time dual income to sustain ourselves.
It's wrong to make a system in which working boys (who are really men) are looked down on, and able bodied boys (not men) are sitting and driving their fathers in law into debt.
I've said this so many times, and then I heard Halacha Headlines say the same thing - shame on a system that makes fathers think they need to buy a boy for their daughters, especially when they cant afford it. And shame on the boys who sit at their tables, eating food paid for by their in-laws, knowing that chicken is causing their wife's parents to be in a bad place financially.
I don't understand why there are people in our midst who think everyone should live like the wealthy. If you can afford it, do it. If not, not. And there is nothing in the world wrong with it. It's honorable to live within your means. And I believe it's the wrong message we are giving our kids to promote an idea that it's shameful or bad to work for a living.
Edited to clarify - I think it's beautiful and amazing to learn full time if that is the desire of the husband and wife, and if it's through parental support (if they can afford it without suffering) or through the wife supporting her husband financially and she wants to with her whole heart - amazing! Beautiful! I am against making it seem like a bad thing to not learn full time and instead to work and learn when he can, either because he wants to, or because he can't afford otherwise. We need all types to support Klal Yisrael. |
Yes to all this!
My seminary always preached a full learner is someone who learns with whatever time is available to them, and honors and looks forward to that time.
Whether its 8 hours or half an hour - it wasn't time that was important. It was the fact that a man makes time, respects and loves Torah and incorporates Torah values into all parts of their life, sees life though the lens of Torah, has a rav etc. That is so much more important than an arbitrary number of hours you learn a week.
Not sure why people are saying "Oh it's so hardddd for the men to be koveah itim".
Thats literally their job. Just like it's our job to birth babies. Nobody said pregnancy and birth or tzniyus was easy. Too bad.
Maybe it's harder for men because they aren't given the tools or knowledge on how to juggle a job, wife, kids, and learning. Instead we smother them in cocoon of full time learning and tell them the rest they can learn/figure out later... .
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amother
Brickred
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Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:34 am
| LovesHashem wrote: | Yes to all this!
My seminary always preached a full learner is someone who learns with whatever time is available to them, and honors and looks forward to that time.
Whether its 8 hours or half an hour - it wasn't time that was important. It was the fact that a man makes time, respects and loves Torah and incorporates Torah values into all parts of their life, sees life though the lens of Torah, has a rav etc. That is so much more important than an arbitrary number of hours you learn a week.
Not sure why people are saying "Oh it's so hardddd for the men to be koveah itim".
Thats literally their job. Just like it's our job to birth babies. Nobody said pregnancy and birth or tzniyus was easy. Too bad.
Maybe it's harder for men because they aren't given the tools or knowledge on how to juggle a job, wife, kids, and learning. Instead we smother them in cocoon of full time learning and tell them the rest they can learn/figure out later... . |
This is beautiful
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