S/O babysitters | Imamother

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 12:43 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

But a baby crying, is NOT a painful procedure! It's communication, which sometimes means that they don't want to be held at the moment.
Crying in itself, isn't a trauma for a baby.

I don’t understand how this fact strengthens your position. Yes, crying is communication that a baby has a need that must be filled. When the baby is left to cry frequently and for long periods of time, in other words, when they are left without their needs being met, they experience harmful consequences.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 12:51 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

Oh please. My 8 year old and 11 year old get home by 4. That's too early for supper, but I usually have supper ready anyway by then. The only time I need their help is when I make chicken cutlets, because breading and frying them take a long time. And my 8 year old loves breading the cutlets for me! He begs me to allow him to! And my 11 year old loves holding the baby right when he comes home because he misses her all day when he's in school. If I wake my 11 year old up in the morning and I'm not holding the baby, he asks me to get her because she loves playing on his bed with him and he loves when she comes in. They are not exactly suffering from having a baby who is held a lot.

Mustard, you can see clearly by my previous posts on this thread how I fall very very strongly in the pro SAHM, secure attachment camp. However, even I need to agree with the posters here disagreeing with you, and that is because the science does not fall on your side. While your approach to holding your baby 24/7 may work well for you, it is not the only scientifically OK method for raising healthy well adjusted babies. Babies who occasionally need to be put down against their will for a few minutes so that their mother can tend to other children’s needs, will not experience any long or short term negative consequences. So you can argue that you think your way is the only correct way, but the other posters here are correct in saying that it’s great that it happens to work perfectly for you, but in many (most?) healthy and functional households there are circumstances that happen each day where the baby needs to cry for a few minutes, and that’s ok, and scientifically speaking there is no reason to feel overly guilty or rearrange your entire lifestyle to ensure your baby is held 24/7.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 12:58 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

You need to realize that not everyone has the same household & circumstances as you & everyone does what's right for them. There's no 1 correct way.

Correct. But no matter what the household is like, that doesn't mean it's okay to let a baby cry in the crib while you spend half an hour frying chicken cutlets.

There was one time recently my 8 year old wasn't in the mood to help so I make the supper myself and the baby was crying so ds11 got annoyed. That was okay with me. An 11 year old is old enough to understand why I need his help, whereas a baby has no clue why you are not holding her. I do not enslave my children. I ask for help with the baby once a week, and it's an added plus that he usually loves doing it.

Even if I could fry the cutlets earlier, I wouldn't because my kids want them fresh out of the pan. It's in my kids' best interest to have them made while they are home, it's in the baby's best interest to be held whenever she cries, and it's okay for an 11 year old to be asked to help once a week, even the rare times he's not in the mood of holding her.

amother

Peony

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:09 pm

im just still not clear on the long term effects of this 'trauma'

real neglect is never okay.. not from a mother and not from a babysitter. but thats not applicable to most loving mothers and most warm caring babysitters

SCIENCE is not always FACT... I literally can point to so many emotionally healthy and happy functional children and adults who did not have SAHM attached to the hip parents.
(I can, btw, point you to people who were never sent to a babysitter and were constantly 'held' or whatever who are extremely dysfunctional adults and emotionally a complete mess)

I do NOT mean that sending out is better. my point is that as long as you have a mother who is trying her best (and a babysitter who is trying her best..) and love and care, your baby will be fine. THE END.

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:12 pm

amother Peony wrote:

This.

All the people here who are sahm, never put your kids down, and didn't sleep train...do any of your kids have any issues? Or all they all perfect?

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:21 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

I don’t think anyone here was arguing that it’s perfectly ok to let your baby scream for half an hour so you can fry chicken cutlets. They’re saying that it’s ok to stick a baby in a bouncer for two minutes so you can take a hot pan out of the oven, or to put them on their mat for 3 minutes so you can go to the bathroom, or even to put them in their crib crying for 5 minutes so you can give your full attention to your 8 year old who just got off the bus and just started a new school and is having a hard time and really needs a few one-on-one calming minutes with you. In all these scenarios, your baby is in a safe and familiar environment and will be duly comforted by a familiar caregiver within a short amount of time. And they will not be harmed.

ETA: And in those cases where there is no choice but to let your baby cry for longer periods of time, like if they are crying in the car anf you are not able to stop and comfort them for 30 minutes- that is ok too. They can hear your voice, the rest of the car environment is hopefully calm, and hopefully it’s not a situation they are in multiple times a day.

amother

Alyssum

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:23 pm

Seriously. I know parents who "sleep trained" their kids (although 30 years ago it wasn't called that) Literally said goodnight to baby at 9pm closed door to room and didn't open it again until 7am. I'm sure their babies cried for many hours. Now those "babies" are in their 30s and 40s and their doing just fine. Have normal jobs/families. I'm sure they also have hidden issues or whatever, but so does everyone.

I'm not advocating for sleep training or sending kids to neglectful sitters. FTR, I've never done this with my own kids. But seriously all, take a chill.

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:29 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Saying a baby crying for a few minutes or a baby going to the babysitter will cause lifelong trauma is pure nonsense. Babies can adapt and if they cry for a few minutes within reason while their needs are always being met it will certainly not harm them for life. Ladies who never put down your babies, never let them cry, don't send them to babysitters, don't sleep trained...are all your kids perfect with no issues?

I'm one of those mother's. I raised six kids this way. No babysitting ever. Lots of holding, no pacifiers or bottles but lots of nursing for a long time, Co sleeping.
My oldest is an adult, happily married. The others are teens thru preschool age.
All are highly intelligent and they rarely get sick, strong immune systems
I'm not saying they're all perfect in every way, of course not, they sometimes fight (not too often) and aren't always obedient. But there's zero chutzpah here, none of my children ever bullied another child as far as I know, they are doing very well in school socially and academically, and have good middos and relationships. My teens didn't act out or go thru a rebellious stage.
I'm not this amazing mother otherwise so yes I do believe that my success in child rearing is due to the attentiveness of their first years. They got a solid foundation. I wish all mother's understood how fundamental the baby years are and how the extra efforts will pay off with an easier time raising them when they're older. It's a phenomenal investment.

And yes, I work full time. From home. And no it was not easy for me at all to parent this way.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:34 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

First of all, this isn’t comparable to a babysitter environment at all, because most babies who are “sleep trained” only cry for the first few nights and then learn to fall asleep on their own. They are also in a familiar and calm environment. So the stress is not as severe or ongoing, and the long term ramifications aren’t the same.

Second of all, let’s make a bold assumption here and assume you are correct that there are thousands of babies who were left to cry all night in their crib and they are not fully functioning adults with no long term issues (this is a big assumption). Does that mean that it was ok for them to be such a terrifying, stressful, situation night after night when they were babies? Does it mean it was ok to do that to them, since it caused no long term damage?

To all the posters here saying that science isn’t facts, and there are millions of happy well adjusted who were sent to babysitters as infants and toddlers- even assuming you are right that those specific people had no long term damage, that doesn’t negate the fact that while they were at the stressful daycare environment, their distress was very very real. Are you saying you’re ok with doing that to your babies?? Because they “won’t remember it”?? What kind of mother does that make you?

That’s besides the fact that modern trends show exactly what the science predicts. Adhd, anxiety, decreased socialization skills, aggression, learning difficulties, behavior disorders, going “OTD”- these things are increasing nonstop in our frum communities.

amother

DarkGray

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:36 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

Absolutely NO ONE said that they leave baby crying for 1/2 an hour & it's ok to do so! No one said that! How did you go from afew moments to 1/2 an hour??? To you, is it either holding baby all day or leaving baby to cry for 1/2 an hour???

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:37 pm

amother Oak wrote:

This.

All the people here who are sahm, never put your kids down, and didn't sleep train...do any of your kids have any issues? Or all they all perfect?

Again you are making the mistake of putting not holding your baby 24/7 in the same category of sending out your infant to a babysitting group. They are nowhere near the same.

And to answer your question, my kids were home with me till approx age 2.5, and they never “cried it out” though I did employ some gentle sleep training methods. Boy do I wish they had no issues. They do, either from the personalities they were born with, the genetics they got, or from different external issues. That doesn’t mean that the quality care they were given as infants and toddlers has not provided them with a stronger start in life and a more secure footing for the future.

amother

DarkGray

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:38 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

NO ONE here is saying that they frequently leave a baby to cry for long periods on time. Babies needs are being met, they're just not being held 24/7 & may sometimes need to cry for afew moments till someone gets to them.
That's not traumatic or harmful. Please.
You're making it seem like people are deliberately neglecting their babies & don't take care of their babies needs. No one is implying that.

amother

Peony

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:40 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

but theres no way to prove thats how your kids turned out.. and good for you that you were able to do all this!! for real!

I just dont think that doing something in another way will cause the opposite outcome..

also my kids have been in daycare since a really young age and both have the most amazing immune systems.. rarely get sick.
and amazing social skills for their age Smile

im very much not discrediting you.. only pointing out that its no guarantee for great kids

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:40 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

The modern trends are happening despite the fact that in today's day so many people are raising kids "better" than previously. There is now so many who don't sleep train, nurse on demand, hold the baby all day and yet look at all these issues that are continuing to rise. They used to give moms medication to dry up their milk...now so many people nurse...and yet all these behavior challenges are increasing. Co sleeping used to be considered dangerous and now is so popular....yet all these behavioral challenges are increasing. So yes there are more problems...but how did you prove that it's because the way babies are treated?

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:43 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

That’s incorrect. A group babysitter environment by definition does not meet the needs of babies.

I am a SAHM and my babies sometimes cry for a few minutes so I can wipe up a spill, sometimes they need to wait 3 minutes for their bottle because the water is heating up. That’s not the kind of situations we are talking about.

amother

Peony

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:45 pm

. That doesn’t mean that the quality care they were given as infants and toddlers has not provided them with a stronger start in life and a more secure footing for the future.

literally my whole point.. that in any case we have NO WAY of knowing!!

again I am not talking about cases of real and serious neglect or abuse..

but there are happy and healthy children and unhappy and unhealthy children on both ends.

as mothers we do our very best (I hope) and daven for children that can thrive and become functioning and contributing adults.

I dont think that pointing to trauma from sending to a babysitter is a valid complaint/judgement.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:49 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Are you asking me how I prove that widespread use of daycare/babysitters starting at a young age (the reality for many many frum families) results in harmful, society wide consequences? The studies speak for themselves. Here is just one such study conducted on the entirety of Quebec. Is that a big enough sample size for you?

https://ifstudies.org/blog/mea.....-care

And just because there may be other factors in our lives that are also harmful, doesn’t make this OK.

amother

Peony

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:54 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

it makes me the kind of mother that does the best I can with the situation and realities I was given.

no I would never consciously put my children in a situation that will be harmful for them.

and I really dont think that is the case with every single babysitter. I have pulled out of a babysitter when I felt my child was not taken care of and those few days she was there were the worst of my life (maybe im traumatized)
of course children need to be taken care of, especially babies. and a babysitter can be perfectly qualified to give that care if need be.