Is debt ok? | Imamother

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 7:26 am

amother Hyssop wrote:

I lived in israel and now live in America. The misgeret is the debt. If you have a misgeret of 20k shekel. You are in debt of 20k shekel. American cards for the most part have a limit on them and will get declined if you reach that limit. It’s more or less the same in both countries just in israel you owe the bank and in America you owe the cc company- both are considered debt.

Ah. Ok. I thought the aay people were talking about being in debt that there were no limits.
But also, I dont know about other people but a misgeret is related to the amount that comes in.
Boy am I glad our misheret is nowhere near 20k.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 7:52 am

There are times in life when you have to put things on credit cards, but nowadays, there's absolutely no excuse unless you have a major health problem or similar, to borrow money from a person and not return it.

There are multiple people who have done that to us, some of whom were obviously later in a position where they did have the extra cash and they never paid us back. I don't think people realize that it's absolutely stealing and against the Torah. We are not the type to bring ppl to BD, especially over $4000, but over the years it's really added up.

I totally get that people don't want to put things on credit cards but if you're not going to be able to keep up with a payment plan to another Jew it's better to pay on a credit card w/ interest or keep looking for something with no interest. Or go to a Gemach, where you aren't literally taking a neighbor who you see every day's actual savings out of their Bank and then just ignoring the fact that you owe it to them.

The saddest part about this is that there have been people that probably really could have paid us back but we were forced to say no and that we are not able to based on what's happened in the past because we really cannot afford to lend people tens of thousands of dollars if we don't think they will return it.

amother

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 7:59 am

amother OP wrote:

Ok so my question about the money is from Hashem thing- why isn't that belief that Hashem gives me that money in the moment. Why is that ok, I'll put it on the credit card and then down the line Hashem will give me?

Meaning like if I believe Hashem determines all parnassah and will work out what I need, why do I need debt? He's only gonna work out what I need in the future and not now?

Anyone have thoughts about this?

amother

Blue

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:00 am

What bothers me here is the attitude.
If you daven for something and Hashem gives it to you, it's one thing.
Spending the money and demanding that He pay it back is quite different.

I would not borrow money unless I had a plan to pay it back.

amother

Puce

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:01 am

Putting things on cards with no way to pay them off means you will be paying high interest rates, for the most part. If you have a 0% card and you pay it off in time, it's a slippery slope but not problematic in and of itself. The major problem with the first scenario is that high interest rates make whatever you're buying very very very expensive. That bra that you want to buy for 60 ends up costing you 200 if you take too long to pay it off. That 300 tour costs you 800. Etc. So besides for the debt that affects you in so many ways, you're buying luxury goods in essence. Debt is also very stressful, and affects your credit score, so when you want to borrow responsibly you can't always (and you may get worse rates).

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:04 am

amother OP wrote:

Anyone have thoughts about this?

I guess that depends on the necessity of what you are putting on the credit card and also if you really believe or not. Ask yourself, if you would go to jail if you didn't pay up the debt would you still put it on the credit card knowing this because you believe so strongly that Hashem will provide and if not it's okay because that's what He wanted?

If the answer is no then you don't actually really believe 100% that it'll be paid back, which means that you can't rely on it, & you're using bitachon as an excuse for bad habits.

amother

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:09 am

amother Floralwhite wrote:

Right but my question is more why, if I tell myself that Hashem will help why isn't he helping in the moment? Meaning if I believe that it's something I need for my family and I need it now and Hashem will give me what I need then he would give me now, not in the future. If I put it on the CC I'm not actually believing he will give me right now

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:17 am

amother OP wrote:

Hashem does not always give right away.
The answer is mot always yes.
Sometimes Hashem says no.
Just because you think you need something right now does not mean you will get it or right away.
And what does how you pay have anything to do with believing if hashem is giving it to you or not?

amother

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:19 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Because if I believe he's going to give me the money later then I would put it on credit card. So I can buy the bra and know he will take care of me

realtalk

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:32 am

Is debt ok? No. It's an extremely slippery slope and prevents you from being able to reach financial goals and have long term security.

Is debt understandable? Sometimes yes. Life is expensive. We can't plan around every emergency or even smaller non emergencies but all stacking up at the same time. But debt should only ever be a short term solution, not a long term one. Unexpected trip to see family in crisis, sure. Child now needs weekly therapy, figure out a way to put it in the budget because it will just add up and you'll never pay it back.

On the Hashem provides side, He decides your needs, not you. Your needs might be figuring out how to manage on less. Frum yidden have had their houses forclosed, needed to declare bankrupty, gone to bed hungry, etc.

amother

Snowflake

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:34 am

amother OP wrote:

Because if I believe he's going to give me the money later then I would put it on credit card. So I can buy the bra and know he will take care of me

wrong attidtude. I took a class with Rachel Shaool and she said if you don't have the cash to buy something dont buy it

amother

Seablue

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:35 am

Op I have experience. We are very frugal and responsible and the opportunity came up to go to Israel for a simcha. At first we weren’t going to go but we found incredible cheap tickets. We booked the cheapest apts. We were very conscious about what we spent on but we weren’t going to not go anywhere so we picked a few meaningful activities. We ended up with 6k debt that we put on a 0 interest cc.

Dh kept on saying that were gonna pay it off. We won’t pay interest. I didn’t believe it. Incredibly, hashem sent me a side hustle that bought in lots of $$$ fast and the day the interest was set to start we paid up the cc. It was an open ness.

Dh relative who was in the most expensive hotels and first class (they let us see it I can’t say I wasn’t jealous) always borrowing money for his business and has cc debt went down a big slippery slope.

So the lesson is bderech shoadom rozei lelech molichen osso- the path the person want to go hashem takes him there.

amother

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 8:38 am

amother Seablue wrote:

Ok this is great. But if it was meant for you to have it why didn't Hashem give it right then. Like make you get the side hustle before the trip so you could pay the tickets with cash or whatever?