Going into debt for a luxury

amother

Begonia

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:53 pm

I'm hearing this again and again and not getting it.
Going into debt without having a plan to get out of it, is not emunah, it's theft. The only thing that it says Hashem gives back is Shabbos and boys chinuch.

Also, there's a flawed logic somewhere. Let's say I need $100 for something so I put it on my credit card in January. In February I need to pay that $100, I'll have to find it somehow. So why not find it now and then use it to pay for that something instead of swiping the credit card?

That's how I live. I needed a new table. Not a luxury, the legs were really wobbly and beyond repair. Cost second hand $150 for something solid. I saved $5 a week until I could pay for it and in the meantime we managed.

I'm not understanding the mentality of I need it so I'll go into debt to get it.
(Obviously if you have no food or shelter, you may not have a choice but I can't see anything beyond that being a reason to go into debt.)

I'm waiting to hear about how I'm obviously rich and don't understand it. Well, it's not true. I often go without but I'll never go into debt. I've moved house because I couldn't afford the rent, I've made the most creative meals.

amother

Tan

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 6:25 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

Because my roof can't wait till I find the 10k to afford it, nor can my kids $400 EpiPen to replace the one that expired 6 months ago but I really shouldn't rely on. Or with your table example- we didn't replace our wobbly table until the day it fell on my legs despite our fixes and really hurt me and we looked at each other and said "bH it was an adult sitting at the table, because if that was a kid it would have been an ER visit. " The table got replaced with the cheapest reasonable replacement we could find, but we couldn't wait longer.

And I'm capable of cheap easy meals, but then the chicken nuggets or fish sticks or frozen pizza my kids ask for instead because they refuse to eat the vegetarian chili cancel out whatever savings I've managed.

amother

Tiffanyblue

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 6:52 pm

What people most often go into debt for is tuition and medical/dental bills (in the frum world). Or unexpected home repairs/emergencies.

I think that people who go into debt for luxuries are not actually thinking that they're going into debt, it's just something they spent on and when they total it up at the end of the month they realize they overspent.

amother

Tiffanyblue

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 6:55 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

I've never actually heard its emunah to go into debt (IRL). However, sometimes there's a big expense that people put on the credit card and assume they will pay it off in the next few months. Yom tov expenses or camp often fall into that category. Noones stealing here... just spreading out the expense.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

amother

Jetblack

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:10 pm

amother Tiffanyblue wrote:

agreed.

When people say 'going into debt" does that mean a debt that they don't have a plan to pay back or is it something that you're putting on the credit card and you know you'll be able to pay back within x amount of months?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a person buying something that they don't necessarily want to spend the full amount on today but they know that they could easily afford it divided over 4 months, & they put it on an interest free credit card or it's the only purchase on their credit card and they calculated any interest they would have to pay and then they pay back over the next few months.

I do think if something is truly a luxury and a table that is completely broken honestly does not fit that category in my mind, and you shouldn't be borrowing from other people and paying it back slowly. Esp since if I'm lending someone money for 6 months it means I'm pulling it out of an account that probably is earning some sort of interest but I'm not allowed to charge you interest... and you're borrowing from me for something that you don't need so that you don't have to pay interest of your own...obviously if you're open with somebody and say I need to borrow money for a down payment for a house etc would you be willing to lend it to me for x years/mths and the person says yes then they are making an informed decision and deciding if this is something that they would like to do for you or not

Perrys

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:17 pm

amother Tan wrote:

I might be able to help you with the epi pen if you pm me.

amother

Currant

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:25 pm

There is a huge grey area between luxury and need. And what's a definite luxury for one person may be very close to a need for another person.

I am BH not in debt and never have been. But we're not high earners at all. I'm also very frugal. We have chicken/ground beef once, or rarely twice a week other than Shabbos food, my kids don't go to sleepover camp (when they're older they work in the summer), we rely almost entirely on hand-me-downs. I also try really hard to remember, though, that just because we can do that doesn't mean that other people can.

I have a friend who works long hours, so does her husband, and a bunch of members of her family have milk allergies or sensitivities. They have fleishigs almost every night. For me, that would be a huge luxury. For her, it's just not.

I have one child who I spend more money on for clothes than on the rest of the family combined (including myself and my husband). I wont' go into detail, but I don't consider it a luxury for him. It's probably much less than most people would pay to outfit a kid for a year, but it's a LOT more than I would normally spend.

There was one year that I had a child that I really thought needed sleepover camp. It would have hurt me so much to spend that amount of money for one child for a few weeks. But the other options were just not options for this child, and would have been severely detrimental. We signed the child up...and then COVID hit. BH we didn't end up having to send, something else opened up near us especially for covid that worked out. But we would have. And we wouldn't have viewed it as a luxury.

Please don't judge other people for their "luxuries." Unless you're giving them tzedakah, and even then, please only if you really know the whole story and if/why these people think this is close to a necessity for them and their families.

amother

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:29 pm

lamplighter wrote:

People don't consider putting something on a credit card and then paying it off slowly over the year debt.
Huge debt is usually because of an unexpected situation: medical, lost job, home emergency etc.

Mine was for just not having enough at the end of the month for necessities. (Food- which was pretty frugal, and utilities). Also some major stuff, a few different dental needs, 2 car repairs, 2 home repairs and all of a sudden we are drowning.

amother

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

But sometimes my kids need clothes, which to me is a luxury because I never buy for myself but really it shouldn't be. (When I do buy it's major sales). Also, things like summer camp, or taking a child to visit a grandparent for vacation (which costs the flight) because really good bonding experience.

amother

Darkblue

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

Kids needing new clothes is not a luxury: kids GROW (BH!) my kids get new everything all the time (coats, boots, sandals, shabbos shoes, of course clothes) but things like hair accessories and winter accessories may not need to be replaced because the size doesn’t change from year to year. Kids clothes is not a luxury. Where you shop and how much you spend may be. If buying kids clothes would put someone in debt then there are tons of people who give away hand me downs