should we get a dog for security?

amother

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 8:47 pm

There have been a number of break ins in the neighborhood. A spokesman for the police department for the area suggested that people either get security systems or dogs to protect their homes. Frankly there are just not enough police in the area.

We aren't afraid of dogs, as dh and I grew up with them, but we never thought we would own one. After all it is generally frowned upon in the community we live in. Our parents got away with it because they were older baalei teshuvah and people just accepted it. I doubt people will think the same for us. After all we should know better.

But I'm worried. Our house has been vandalized already, our garage broken into. A security system isn't an option for us since we only live in part of the house and can't require that the other tenants use it. In fact they are so "unconcerned" about the break-ins that they constantly leave the windows open even when they are not home. This makes our home vulnerable.

The police spokesman made it out that a homeowner just needs to make their home a bit harder than the next one and the burglar will most likely move on.

I'm completely prepared for the comments and all the care a dog would need. I'm experienced and wouldn't be over my head caring for it, and my kids would be thrilled they've been begging us for a long time.

I'm just not sure, but I know that at night I lay awake with noises in the alley and think what would happen if someone CV"S broke in. The other break ins around here were armed and scary. With my kids in the other part of the house could I get there?

I keep going back and forth. I know without the security issue I wouldn't do it even if I wanted to, I don't want the dog to attack, just to bark and scare someone away or alert us.

WWYD??

Nomad

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 9:28 pm

"We aren't afraid of dogs, as dh and I grew up with them, but we never thought we would own one. After all it is generally frowned upon in the community we live in. Our parents got away with it because they were older baalei teshuvah and people just accepted it. I doubt people will think the same for us. After all we should know better. "

if this is the only reason not to get a dog (not the commitment, walking, care, discomfort around dogs...), I would TOTALLY get one

sounds like the benefits outweigh the one reason not to (others will talk?)

who cares what other people think?

mazeltov

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 9:50 pm

the gemara discusses that a person should not get a dog unless it is securely chained and will not frighten anyone with its bark. if you're getting it for security, the idea is to frighten others, which is not allowed. there were woman who had miscarriages because they were frightened by dogs.
I did a search on google for the source, and here are two of the links that I found:
http://www.daat.ac.il/DAAT/eng.....1.htm
http://www.come-and-hear.com/b......html
NO MAN SHOULD BREED A DOG UNLESS IT IS ON A CHAIN etc. Our Rabbis taught: No man should breed a dog unless it is kept on a chain. He may, however, breed it in a town adjoining the frontier where he should keep it chained during the daytime and loose it only at night. It was taught: R. Eliezer the Great says that he who breeds dogs is like him who breeds swine. What is the practical bearing of this comparison? — That he5 be declared cursed.6 R. Joseph b. Manyumi said in the name of R. Nahman that Babylon was on a par with a town adjoining the frontier.7 This, however, was interpreted to refer to Nehardea. R. Dostai of Bira8 expounded: And when it rested, he said, Return O Lord unto the tens of thousands [and] the thousands of Israel.9 This, [he said,] teaches that the Shechinah10 does not rest upon Israel if they are less than two thousand plus two tens of thousands.11 Were therefore the Israelites [to be twenty-two thousand] less one, and there was there among them a pregnant woman thus capable of completing the number, but a dog barked at her and she miscarried, the [dog] would in this case cause the Shechinah to depart from Israel. A certain woman12 entered a neighbour's house to bake [there bread], and a dog suddenly barked at her, but the owner of the house said to her: Do not be afraid of the dog as its teeth are gone. She, however, said to him: Take thy kindness and throw it on the thorns, for the embryo has already been moved [from its place].

I copied and pasted this info from the above links. for your information.
Halachic Perspectives on Pets
Rabbi Howard Jachter
Member, Yeshiva University Kollel Lehoraah (Yadin-Yadin); Associate Rabbi, Congregation Beth Judah, Brooklyn, N.Y.

Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society - No. XXIII, Spring, 1992, Pesach 5752

Introduction
In recent decades it has become common among some observant Jews to own pets. A pet owner however, is regularly confronted with a wide variety of halachic issues. This essay will discuss a number of these issues, among them caring for a pet's needs, removing reproductive organs, Hilchot Shabbat problem, and bringing a guide dog into a synagogue. The discussion will begin with an examination of a fundamental question, the halachic propriety of owning pets.

I. The Propriety of Owning Pets
The halachic literature indicates that it has been common practice among Ashkenazic Jews over the past several centuries to own non-farm animals, especially dogs.1 Rabbinic authorities have debated the propriety and permissibility of this practice. Their positions depend to a great extent on how they harmonize seemingly contradictory talmudic texts which appear in tractate Baba Kama. The Talmud (Baba Kama 15b) cites Rabbi Natan who asserts that one who raises an "evil dog" in his home violates the biblical prohibition "Do not place blood in your home" (Deuteronomy 22:8)2. The implication is that it is permissible to raise a dog in one's home provided that the creature is not an "evil dog". Rabbi Yishmael, in fact, permits one to raise a type of dog known as kofri dogs (Rashi: small dogs or large hunting dogs which do no harm) since they help eliminate rodents (Baba Kama 80a).

On the other hand, the Talmud (Baba Kama 79b) writes that one is forbidden to own a dog unless it is securely chained (if the dog is securely chained it will neither do any damage nor frighten anyone with its bark). Moreover, the rabbis of the Talmud (Baba Kama 83a) pronounced a curse upon one who owns dogs. These statements seem to apply to all dogs.

Rambam (Hilchot Nizkei Mammon 5:9), in fact, rules that it is forbidden to raise any dog unless it is secured by chains "since dogs frequently cause considerable damage," Rambam apparently believes that Rabbi Yishmael's permissive ruling is contradicted by the Mishanah and Gemara of Baba Kama 79b and 83a, respectively. Rabbi Yishmael accordingly would be the sole authority who permits raising kofri dogs, and thus Rambam believes that the consensus of opinion among talmudic authorities rejects his view. 3

Most Rishonim, however, including Smag, 4 Yeraim, 5 Tur, 6 and Hagahot Maimoniyot7 disagree with Rambam and limit this prohibition to "evil dogs." These authorities believe that the statements that appear on Baba Kama 79b and 83a are limited to "evil dogs". 8

Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 409:3) rules in accordance with the opinions which limit the prohibition to an "evil dog". The Achronim almost without exception accept these opinions as well. 9 Rabbi Yaakov Emden10 appears to be the lone authority who believes one is forbidden to own any type of dog.

The question, though, is how to define an "evil dog". Rashi (explaining why the Mishnah (Baba Kama 79b) forbids raising a dog unless it is chained) writes "it bites and it barks, thereby causing pregnant women to miscarry." Rashi can be interpreted in one of two ways (since he uses the Hebrew letter vav which sometimes means "and " and sometimes means "or"). The first possibility is that an evil dog is one that both bites and barks, and the second possibility is that it is one that either bites or barks. Rabbi Shlomo Luria (Yam Shel Shlomo Baba Kama 7:45) is inclined to adopt the second possibility and suggests that a dog is considered to be "evil" if it barks, even if it does not bite. The reason for this, the Talmud recounts, is that a dog's bark11 may cause a woman to miscarry, the Talmud (Baba Kama 83a), in fact, records two incidents of women who miscarried because they were frightened by dogs. Therefore, Rabbi Luria suggests that the only dogs one may own are the kofri dogs that Rabbi Yishmael explicitly asserts are permitted. Rabbi Luria seems to indicate that one is permitted to own these dogs even if they bark. Apparently, since people are aware that these dogs are not harmful, they know that they need not fear these dogs' bark.

Nevertheless, Rabbi Luria limits his ruling to "God-fearing individuals" and concludes his discussion by station "therefore, we must excuse the Jewish people (I.e., those who own dogs which bark but do not bite) but praised is one who is careful [to limit his ownership to kofri type dogs] and blessings should be conferred upon him." The implication is that there is some halachic justification for those Jews who own dogs who bark but do not bite. The justification seems to be based on an interpretation of Rashi's description of an "evil dog" as one which both bites and barks. Accordingly, only a dog which bites would frighten a woman with its bark and possibly cause a miscarriage.

Shulchan Aruch Harav (Hilchot Shmirat Guf V'nefesh, number three) adopts a similar, albeit somewhat more firm, stance on this issue. He notes that Jews commonly own dogs that bark but do not bite and that some authorities justify the practice by limiting the definition of an evil dog to one that bites. Shulchan Aruch Harav asserts, however, that this view is rejected by the consensus of halachic authorities and that the category of "evil dogs" includes those dogs which bark even though they do not bite. Therefore, he concludes that "all God-fearing Jews should be certain to keep their dogs that bark tied up in iron chains while people are awake, even if their dogs merely bark but do not bite. On the other hand, Knesset Hagedola (Choshen Mishpat 409:4) notes that common practice among Jews is not to accept the stringent view of Yam Shel Shlomo and Shulchan Aruch Harav. He indicates that the custom is to own dogs which bark as long as they do not bite.

Although Knesset Hagedola writes that common practice among observant Jews is not to follow the opinion of Yam Shel Shlomo, it appears proper to follow the latter's opinion. First Shulchan Aruch Harav, which is recognized as a major halachic work, supports Rabbi Luria's position. Second, the Talmud considers a dog's fearsome bark to be a public nuisance. Hence, if one chooses to own a dog, one should be certain not only that the dog does not bite, but also that the creature does not frighten people with its bark. However, if one finds it absolutely necessary to raise a dog that may cause harm (for protection, for example), one must be certain that the animal is tied up securely at times when it may do damage either with its bite or its bark.

Rabbi Yaakov Emden (Sheilat Yaavetz, number 17) adds a further restriction to the type of dog one may own. He writes that one is permitted to own a dog if the creature serves an economic or protective purpose. However, he strongly condemns ownership of a dog as a pet as being a waste of time and precisely the [abhorrent] behavior of the uncircumcised."

Nevertheless, Rabbi Emden does not marshal sources to support this position and appears to constitute a minority view.12 Shulchan Aruch and most authorities limit the talmudic prohibition to ownership of "evil dogs". The clear implication is that one may own a dog for any reason, provided it is not an evil dog.13 Moreover, the Talmud indicates that Jews used various animals for recreational purposes. The Mishnah (Shabbat 90b) relates that children used to play with a certain type of locust. The Talmud (Baba Batra 20a) tells of a certain type of bird known as "kalanita", which can be used by a child to play. These two passages seem to demonstrate that the Mishnah has no objections to keeping animals for enjoyment contrary to the position of Rabbi Emden. Rabbi Emden might respond that these passages do not discuss dogs and do not prove that one may keep a dog as a pet. Rabbi Emden might agree that one may own a pet which does not require much attention. Perhaps he believes that only keeping a dog as pet mimics "the abhorrent behavior of the uncircumcised."

Our discussion regarding dogs appears to apply to ownership of other animals as well. Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 261:1) rules that one may kill an "evil cat" which harms children. Once again the rule is limited to an "evil" animal. The general principle according to most authorities is that one may own a pet provided that the animal does not pose a danger to people or property.14

amother

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 9:53 pm

^^ thats a very very long post.

I say if you are committed to being a responsible pet owner, and remember that dogs are family, then sure.

Otherwise, call an alarm system company and hang up a sign.

life'sgreat

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 9:55 pm

According to what you wrote, I don't see a reason not to get a dog. It seems that a security system isn't an option because of the neighbors and the fact that they make your part of the house more vulnerable by giving the burglars easy opportunity is all the more a reason to get a dog.

amother

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 10:31 pm

Thank you mazel tov for all the info, but we aren't planning on 1) breeding dogs 2) our rav has said that a dog as a security is a valid reason 3) unless the pregnant woman is trying to break into our house she should be fine. Only the windows are external openings the doors are all inside.

Yes life'sgreat, like you said, I can't count on a security system it won't do anything. I don't want a scary guard dog either. I want a nice calm family pet that IF someone tries to break in they will be scared away. Just wondering if this is done. People round here don't have dogs because they think its pas nisht.

Just wondering if there are any other regular frum people out there that would consider owning a family dog for this reason.

GreenEyes26

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 10:40 pm

Why doesn't your husband get a gun?

amother

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 10:46 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Why doesn't your husband get a gun?

Umm
1) we want to prevent people from breaking in not shoot them once they do
2) he probably would be to scared to use one
3) I don't want one in my house... I'd rather have the dog
4) What would I do if he wasn't here.. I doubt I'd be able to use it if I was face to face with an armed burglar

But otherwise a good idea. Really the main problem is that you can't deter a criminal from entering your house just because you have a gun, you have to wait till they are already in. Its more of a loss prevention than crime deterrent. I don't care if they steal all my silver and jewelry and electronics, I'd just prefer they don't enter my house at all.

GreenEyes26

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 11:03 pm

Gotcha. Very valid. I say, go for the dog and who cares what anyone else thinks? I know it's accepted in certain Jewish communities not to have large pets, but I never understood that. Get a cute puppy that will grow into a large scary dog (at least to a burglar at night)!

MrsDash

Sun, Jun 06 2010, 11:55 pm

The neighborhood I grew up in, had ongoing issues with gangs, drugs, theft, etc. My parents never installed an alarm system. We always had dogs (among several other pets). One was a german shepherd, and the other was a doberman. Our doberman was so sweet and gentle with the family and children, but when it came to protecting our family, he stood his ground. Not once in the 10 some years of living there did anyone ever break in.
Before deciding on a breed, do some research to determine which dog will fit your family best.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 1:14 am

amother wrote:

So basically you're going to want to invest in a security-trained dog like a German Shepard...

Do you have room in your house for a large dog? A yard for it to play in and to do it's business on Shabbat if you don't hold by an Eruv? Committed to walking it 7 days a week, no matter the weather? Or if it's Chag?

lilacdreams

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 2:56 am

some neighbors of ours jut got broken into, they were "cleared out". Their dog did nothing because he knew the burgular.....

another time our previous home's previous owner was broken into. Their dog hid and wimpered under the table. The old lady had to pretend to be sleeping not to get sttacked.

I'm not so sure a dog is a magic solution - especially a calm family dog. How about a beware of the dog sign? how about an alarm that sounds like dogs barking? Security cams are good because you also have a videa of whoever comes near the hosue.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 3:00 am

You don't need an large dog for security reasons...you need one that will bark. The Japanese I believe would keep small dogs as sort of burglar alarms... they can be very tenacious.

Dogs are great and provide a great many benefits to your life.

Search out the dogs that are good family dogs AND good for security.

Examine each breed for their basic needs (all dogs need to be exercised/fed/loved...but different dogs have different requirements...for example, some dogs do fine as outdoor dogs, other require more constant attention.) and for their health issues. Make certain you can deal with these issues.

Here is a link to the subject.

http://caninebreeds.bulldoginf......html

summarizing: you need to determine if you want a WATCHdog (smaller then is fine) or a GUARDdog (bigger is better, as is a darker coat)
Read through and determine what your needs are, then examine the various breeds.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 3:05 am

Another list:
http://www.gopetsamerica.com/d......aspx

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 3:41 am

The thing about small dogs is they tend t be rather yappy... we had a small dog that wouldn't stop barking... he'd bark at every shadow that passed the front window, back window... you get the idea. We ended up re-homing him because I couldn't stand the constant barking.

When we first moved to Ariel, a lot of our immediate neighbors had small dogs. Who were left outdoors during the day and some were left outside 24/7... no matter the weather.

And they beasts never shut up.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 3:56 am

They can be! But some are content to snuggle and cuddle and only 'yap" when they have something to say.

Really, it comes down to research. I was looking at the second link and the Airdale sounds great...(IMHO)

gp2.0

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 8:59 am

IMO the airedale is too funny-looking to be a good guard dog! I'm partial to shelties but think they're too cute to be guard dogs. If your rav said it's ok then why do you need imamother for validation? Even if some of us live in your anti-dog community obviously most of us are the minority that are pro-dog... people in your community will talk and you can say you have a legitimate reason to have a dog. Obviously they know about the recent burglaries... Something just occcured to me though - what is everyone else in your community doing?

Ruchel

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 9:16 am

Have it trained very well, and always be careful when any kid is around. My dad had a dog trained for defense, and one day it attacked him and blocked him in the toilets for two days. And he was lucky it didn't go further.

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 9:20 am

There is a difference between guard dogs (which attack) and watch dogs which basically bark a lot and warn their owners. The first I would not have in the house unless it was extremely well trained. They can turn...a watch dog is just naturally defensive about its territory and family and will bark if someone enters that shouldn't.

Most dogs are fairly family oriented and will bark when someone comes to the house...and most thieves will not stay in such a case. The noise alone alerts the family and the police are just a quick call away.

DefyGravity

Mon, Jun 07 2010, 9:32 am

YESHASettler wrote:

I agree with everything YeshaSettler said.

And if you decide to get one of the working breeds (or any smart dog), like a German Shepherd Dog, you need to do a lot with it to keep it from getting bored because it's a very smart dog that needs to keep it's mind and body busy.

I think a lot of people that grew up with dogs don't realize how big of a responsibility a dog is because I'm sure their parents took up a lot of the more annoying parts of its care.

Vet bills alone can be enormous. When I warned my friend about getting a dog and told her that even a mutt can cost a lot in vet bills, she scoffed at me and said that that was only because my dog was old. Boy was she in over her head when they had to spend loads on their new puppy because she wouldn't stop chewing her tail!

My dog is definitely not a guard dog, but he erupts in a torrent of barks whenever anyone knocks on the door. And thankfully, meshulachim NEVER come to our house!