Kapparos-why use chickens if there's an alternative

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur

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Raizle

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 6:27 pm

maze wrote:

I heard that chickens for kapparos- are kept in a tiny pen for a whole day, no room to move, under cruel conditions (and after they're shechted they're sometimes thrown away. )
It seems like such tzaar baalei chaim. For people who still use chickens-why? We have a much better alternative these days--money.
Ramban and some other Rabbanim opposed using chickens.

this is our minhag, this is how our rabbonim pasken. many of us don't pasken according to Ramban
please don't impose your groups minhogim on us or diss our minhogim.
It is NOT tzar baalei chaim, there is nothing cruel going on in the kapores process and they are NOT thrown away but put to very good use. Where on earth do you get that from?

Quote:

It's the cruelty and the tzaar baalei chaim that happens during the process, that's the problem, not the eating.

this has nothing to do with kapores, they do the same thing with chickens that are being taken to factories to slaughter simply to sell at the butchers.
It's an issue to take up with the farmers and factories that own the chickens, not the yidden that use them.

what should be done is that people need to be taught how to hold the chickens in such a way that they are kept calm. It's really quite simple. Our chickens were very quiet and calm during the whole process.

Friedasima I think you need to bring sources for what you are saying because it's news to me too.
(as per hadasa's post).

In short different Rabbonim pasken differently.
And just like a sefardi would not appreciate me lecturing to them about the importance of going out with a sheitel and not a tichel (and visa versa I really do not appreciate being told I'm going to hell for wearing sheitels), the same too here.
We follow our minhogim and you follow yours.
again, there is nothing cruel about kapores. The only cruelty taking place should be taken up with the companies that raise the chickens.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 7:29 pm

freidasima wrote:

The idea that people eat meat is one thing. The idea of thinking we can transfer our sins to them is another. I am not against eating meat. I am against the concept that today we are of any madrego that allows us to even contemplate the idea of transfering our sins to an animal. Who are we? With what right? That ended when we lost the beis hamikdosh.

And yet, AFAIK, kaparos was instituted after the churban, right?
Even if we lost the right, we can still do it for the symbolism. That accounts for quite a lot of our actions these days.

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 7:50 pm

Quote:

It is NOT tzar baalei chaim, there is nothing cruel going on in the kapores process and they are NOT thrown away but put to very good use

Raizle, where do you live? Where I live, chickens die every year before kapporos, because of the conditions in which they wait for the kapparos. There's no one feeding them or giving them water, sometimes for many days in a row.

There's someone on my facebook list who describes her chicken dying as she is actually doing kapparos with it, the chicken dies in the middle. You think that was from old age, maybe?

And for the rest of you, here's what I'm wondering. Would you personally eat a chicken to which all the sins have been transferred? I'd especially like the lubavitchers to answer that.

maze

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 7:53 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

It is NOT tzar baalei chaim, there is nothing cruel going on in the kapores process and they are NOT thrown away but put to very good use

And for the rest of you, here's what I'm wondering. Would you personally eat a chicken to which all the sins have been transferred? I'd especially like the lubavitchers to answer that.

marina, I also wondered about the tranferring sins part--why should someone now eat that ?

Raizle

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 7:58 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

It is NOT tzar baalei chaim, there is nothing cruel going on in the kapores process and they are NOT thrown away but put to very good use

what you are saying is true but has nothing to do with the kapores itself. This is a problem that takes place before the chickens (where I live) fall into Jewish hands at all.

Yes I agree something needs to be done, and my husband started talking to some people locally already about this problem. But again, this has nothing to do with the minhag itself and not a reason to abolish it.
What people should be calling for are improvements not abolishment.

Quote:

And for the rest of you, here's what I'm wondering. Would you personally eat a chicken to which all the sins have been transferred? I'd especially like the lubavitchers to answer that.

I don't transfer my sins to the chicken. The concept is that if someone is Ch"v destined to die this year the chicken should go in their place as a kapora, not that the chicken get's their sins.
the chicken doesn't get their sins anymore then a coin for tzedoka does.

bringing up the karbonos analogy again, how did the kohanim eat from the karbonos if they like you suggest, the sins were "transferred" to them.

so many "reasons" nowadays are not the reasons at all but people's perceptions of why we do things that suddenly become Torah misinai!

gryp

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:02 pm

We didn't lose the right of using an animal/bird for a kapparah. We lost the right to offer it on a mizbeach to Hashem.

Shechting a korban symbolizes "shechting" our nefesh habehamis, milashon, behema. Davening or atoning for our sins both require sacrifice from us, from the part of us that desires physicality.

These animals were created by G-d for this purpose, to be elevated through these special mitzvos. It looks like just an animal/bird to us, that is what we see physically. Inside it is a nitzotz (spark) of kedusha waiting to be used for a mitzvah, to be elevated to its source. By using a physical part of our world for a mitzvah, the physical has an aliyah as well.

Let's not lose track of that. It is all G-d's plan. He created and provided for us things He wants us to use to fulfill His mitzvos. Second-guessing that is second-guessing G-d Himself.

gryp

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:10 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

It is NOT tzar baalei chaim, there is nothing cruel going on in the kapores process and they are NOT thrown away but put to very good use

Marina. I wrote the story on FB of the chicken dying in the middle of kaporos.

You cannot possibly know what the chicken died from.

Please. Do. Not. Twist. Stories. To. Suit. Your. Anti-Chicken-Kaporos. Agenda.

You have no idea where the story took place and under which conditions.

You cannot possibly know what the chicken died from. Have I said that yet?

Quote:

And for the rest of you, here's what I'm wondering. Would you personally eat a chicken to which all the sins have been transferred? I'd especially like the lubavitchers to answer that.

Do we need to look up the definition of symbolism?

You know the shechted chickens many times end up at Yeshivas. Of course we eat those chickens.

What do you think they did in Russia? The kaporos chicken WAS their Erev YK meal.

Wishing you a wonderful, sweet new year with many blessings, Marina!

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:12 pm

It doesn't matter that the poor treatment of the chickens is unintentional, uh, kind of like it doesn't matter if I don't intend to turn the light on when I open my refrigerator on shabbos.

This concept, in halacha, is called....Psik Reisha, a rather appropriate term for this conversation Smile

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:15 pm

Gryp, I've lived where you live and I've done kapparos many times there. I know what it's like and you know what it's like and let's not play pretend that the chickens in crown heights just die of sudden old age.

And it baffles me that chabad is so careful to spill out the wine from the makkos and the water from mezuman, but chickens with someone else's sins, Yum, Yum, please pass those sinful thighs!

Raizle

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:15 pm

marina wrote:

did you read my response to you at all?

I said nothing about intention, I said the kapores wasn't the one responsible for the ill treatment of the chickens and it's a year long problem of the treatment of chickns rather then a "kapores" issue

again, YES it has to be dealt with.
NO abolishing kapores won't be protecting the chickens from further ill treatment.

If you are going to say abolish kapores, then you might just as well say everyone should become vegetarians.

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:19 pm

Raizle wrote:

marina wrote:

I read your response and I have responded. The treatment of the chickens before kapparos is one of the main problems people have with the ritual in the first place. It is inseparable now from the actual act.

And your last sentence is a bit extreme. It's like someone saying "Those people asking us to recycle our plastic cans are crazy, they might as well say that no one should ever use plastics again."

gryp

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:23 pm

marina wrote:

Excuse me, but you didn't read the original story correctly. Like I said, you don't know under which circumstances the chicken died. Perhaps you want to go back to FB and read it again. It may clarify a few details for you. It certainly did not happen in Crown Heights.

Secondly, if you want to ask a question, how about you just ask? Why do you feel the need to degrade? Why can't Imamother just be a place for frum women who do what they do without the comments that serve to mock people's minhagim and religious practices? These comments cause division and resentment, and certainly don't get any of us to a better place.

sushilover

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:36 pm

[quote="marina"]

Quote:

And for the rest of you, here's what I'm wondering. Would you personally eat a chicken to which all the sins have been transferred? I'd especially like the lubavitchers to answer that.

Yup. I eat the kaporos every year. But I'm not lubavitch, though

Raizle

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 8:56 pm

marina wrote:

Raizle wrote:

marina wrote:

marina your responses following your queries don't reflect that you read or cared at all that your question was answered.

proof of that is:
you asked about eating chickens with someone else's sins
I answered that it's a misconception. The chicken doesn't have my sins, I don't transfer them to a chicken or a coin or a fish or anything.

yet you still a sarcastic comment:

Quote:

but chickens with someone else's sins, Yum, Yum, please pass those sinful thighs!

so tell me honestly please, are you asking your questions because you genuinely want to hear the answer?
or did you simply think I didn't have an answer and would get caught out thus proving your point?
or do you simply ask to shtech?

My comment at the end was not extreme. The same people transporting those hungry and thirsty chickens to kapores would be transporting them to the slaughter house for treif or kosher butchers throughout the year. Kapores doesn't change their treatment. So if you want to say don't do kapores on chickens because of how they are treated then you might as well be telling us to stop eating them througout the year.

kitov

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 9:12 pm

Raizle wrote:

This is what I learned too, in a chaseedishe school, not Lubavitch.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 9:36 pm

kitov wrote:

Raizle wrote:

This is what I learned too, in a chaseedishe school, not Lubavitch.

Maybe it's my inner Litvak but the one time I did kaparos with a chicken (I was in sem and sowing my wild oats) I guessed I missed out. I didn't transfer my sins but focused on how all that could/should have been happening to me and I hoped that Iwould be worthy of the great gift of a second chance I was being granted. Dang. That year's sins have surely been haunting me since.

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 9:53 pm

1. Gryp, I apologize to you. I looked for the Fb story and cannot find it, so maybe I got it wrong. Maybe you can clarify it here. Why did your chicken die suddenly? What is your theory? Maybe we are talking about different stories.

2. Raizle, my sarcastic comment about the sinful chicken thighs was directed not at you, but rather at chabad. I really genuinely do not understand how wine from makkos which represents the shlosha kelippos hatemeos must be disposed of within minutes, or else everyone gets upset, but a chicken which is being killed instead of me/ for my sins can be eaten. Do you not see the inconsistency of that position?

But of course I do not ask to hear any answers. I gave up on answers a long long time ago. There are no good answers because no one is really prepared to analyze their customs and laws and traditions and discard those that are no longer useful or the ones which actually cause harm. So everyone just defends the existing customs and practices and their answers are just an exercise in apologetics. See gryp's whole "second-guessing that is second-guessing G-d Himself." If your attitude is that the questions don't really matter because we aren't going to change anything, then inevitably, the answers will be very weak because you can say anything and call it an *answer* and then when the person says "gosh, that answer was weak" you can just say "aha, you are not asking to hear the answer, you are just asking because you like to hear yourself talk."

And, no I did not find your answer satisfying. If it is a misconception that the aveiros are transferred, then it is a very very widespread one. And the groups that are so makpid on not ingesting anything which possibly somehow has some symbolic tumah attached to it, I just don't understand how they eat this food. I guess I am still misconceived, despite your answer. And if it is unintended that the animals are mistreated, then it is still very very widespread. So at some point, you wonder why it is all worth it. Why have so many many misconcepted people and harmed animals for a minhag which was widely critized even during the writing of the shulchan aruch?

Quote:

Secondly, if you want to ask a question, how about you just ask? Why do you feel the need to degrade? Why can't Imamother just be a place for frum women who do what they do without the comments that serve to mock people's minhagim and religious practices? These comments cause division and resentment, and certainly don't get any of us to a better place.

Okay, Gryp, I will apologize and bow out. You keep your minhogim and your answers and I won't degrade them by asking my questions about Tzar Baalei Chaim, which apparently does not exist, or if it does exist, it is not a kappores problem, it is just a side point that has nothing to do with this very lovely minhog.

Mommy3.5

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 10:10 pm

akivachaya wrote:

how do you see the chicken being a kapara? by killing it? that doesnt seem very fair to me. I would not feel very good about my forgiveness if I knew that something had to die in order for me to receive it.

Pick up a machzor l'yom kipur and read the text for Kaparot, its very clear that the chicken is being shected in place of the person doing kaparot. Its the same theme in tashlich. Plainly and simply, I do not need to JUSTIFY it to you, there are centuries worth of rabbanim to rely on. As Ora said, chickens are ALWAYS treated badly, and most of us are not vegetarians in protest.

Raizle

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 10:19 pm

marina wrote:

2. Raizle, my sarcastic comment about the sinful chicken thighs was directed not at you, but rather at chabad. I really genuinely do not understand how wine from makkos which represents the shlosha kelippos hatemeos must be disposed of within minutes, or else everyone gets upset, but a chicken which is being killed instead of me/ for my sins can be eaten. Do you not see the inconsistency of that position?

what the heck?
so you asked for a Lubavitcher to answer the question
I did
but you never really intended for her/my answer to represent Chabad? what for did you ask the question on this site for?
go and ask a Lubavitcher Rov instead of asking a chossid.

no I do not see any insconsistencies because you have it all wrong.
we spill out the wine because we do not rejoice in the suffering of our enemies.
the chicken is not my enemy. And the chicken does not absorb my or other people's sins.
you are making up your own reasons for things.

Quote:

But of course I do not ask to hear any answers.

well thanks for your honesty

Quote:

I gave up on answers a long long time ago. There are no good answers because no one is really prepared to analyze their customs and laws and traditions and discard those that are no longer useful or the ones which actually cause harm. So everyone just defends the existing customs and practices and their answers are just an exercise in apologetics. See gryp's whole "second-guessing that is second-guessing G-d Himself." If your attitude is that the questions don't really matter because we aren't going to change anything, then inevitably, the answers will be very weak because you can say anything and call it an *answer* and then when the person says "gosh, that answer was weak" you can just say "aha, you are not asking to hear the answer, you are just asking because you like to hear yourself talk."

I don't know what religion you've been a part of but what you describe doesn't sound like my world at all
I said you aren't asking to hear the answer because you completely ignored the answer and pretended it didn't exist.
it's like you asked me why is the imamother screen pink and I told you it's not pink, it's blue but you went on cracking jokes about the pink imamother screen.

Quote:

And, no I did not find your answer satisfying. If it is a misconception that the aveiros are transferred, then it is a very very widespread one.

yes that is a problem. It seems you are keen on helping spread it though

Quote:

And the groups that are so makpid on not ingesting anything which possibly somehow has some symbolic tumah attached to it, I just don't understand how they eat this food. I guess I am still misconceived, despite your answer. And if it is unintended that the animals are mistreated, then it is still very very widespread. So at some point, you wonder why it is all worth it. Why have so many many misconcepted people and harmed animals for a minhag which was widely critized even during the writing of the shulchan aruch?

Again, you are totally ignoring the answers you recieved, pretending they do not exist, not even responding to the legitimate explanations of what is really happening

Quote:

One can ask questions all they like so long as it's respectful.
If you are going to ask just to annoy and not to actually recieve an answer then well I guess that says it all.

PinkFridge wrote:

kitov wrote:

Raizle wrote:

This is what I learned too, in a chaseedishe school, not Lubavitch.

read it again please

THERE IS NO TRANSFERRING OF SINS!

seriously? if only life was that easy

MrsDash

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 10:29 pm

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