Kapparos-why use chickens if there's an alternative

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 11:16 pm

Marina, I hear what you're saying and (are you sitting down?) I actually agree with some of your points.

I was talking to DH last night (he's Lubavitch, and a shochet) and we were discussing the deplorable conditions these poor chickens are raised in. I'm an idealist, and I suggested that the rabbonim have an obligation to demand that the chickens are raised in a humane environment, or else they will take their business elsewhere. Boycott the batteries, and support farmers who take care of their stock.

DH said that would never work, because they buy the cheapest chicken they can find, and sell them for as much as they can get for them. It's greed, pure and simple. DH said that he would never eat battery raised kapparot chickens, not because of any "transferred sins", but because the chicken flesh is stringy and GRAY from lack of sunlight, decent food, etc. Blech!

He has no problem eating a plump, juicy free range kappora chicken, and has done so many times. He doesn't believe in the literal transferrence of sin to the chicken, but rather in the symbolism. DD and I will be using money this year, as always, and he has no problem with that.

So anyway, that's one Lubavitcher's opinion on the situation, FWIW.

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 11:22 pm

Quote:

what the heck?
so you asked for a Lubavitcher to answer the question
I did
but you never really intended for her/my answer to represent Chabad? what for did you ask the question on this site for?
go and ask a Lubavitcher Rov instead of asking a chossid.

no I do not see any insconsistencies because you have it all wrong.
we spill out the wine because we do not rejoice in the suffering of our enemies.
the chicken is not my enemy. And the chicken does not absorb my or other people's sins.
you are making up your own reasons for things.

Okay, I tried to be nice and apologize. Now I'm done with that.

1. The reason for the "misconception" is pretty basic. Kapparos is based on the Azazel goat. From here..

And the Azazel goat is specifically mentioned as carrying the sins of Bnei Yisroel. Vayikra 16:21, 22.

So let's stop blaming this on misconceptions, shall we?

2. We spill out the wine and take it away because it represents anger and evil and klippah. See the Alter Rebbe's Siddur on this and also the haggadah by R. Green, p. 102.

Can we please stop basing all our discussions on the premise that I'm a clueless jerk. Thank you.

Frantic, thanks for your support Smile

gryp

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 11:37 pm

You know, Marina, I understand that it's my fault that I put a perfectly normal story about my family on the internet and it got misconstrued. I understand that people who are used to thinking a certain way will automatically use that kind of thinking even on perfectly harmless stories and mess it up. It's my fault, I put the story on the net.

However, I do not appreciate you firstly accusing the person in the story of tzaar baalei chaim when I specifically wrote in the story that these are gentle people. Then when you decide to "apologize," you accuse me of the same aveirah. That's some way to apologize.

No, I'm not going to repeat the story for an unlimited audience. I wrote it for a very specific limited audience, hesitatingly though, because it wasn't exactly my type of audience. I thought people would have enough common sense to see it for what it was- a regular, flukey story.

I do realize that this post may be copied, cut up, genetically modified, and made chop-suey of, on any number of pages on the internet for any audience. See if I care.

From here we learn, when you stick to Emes, it doesn't shortchange you or lead you to sheker. I am so grateful right now to be where I am and not on an endless journey of searching where Emes doesn't exist.

Back to my gluten-free kreplach.

marina

Thu, Oct 06 2011, 11:44 pm

I am sorry gryp. I did not know that the story was about your family. I don't think I misconstrued anything you wrote anywhere. But I apologize because your feelings are clearly hurt and I should have thought more before repeating a story from FB here.

I did not at any point accuse you or anyone in your family of tzar baalei chaim. A chicken that dies as it is being swung over someone's head obviously was very sick to begin with, possibly from not having any water or food in the last few days. Nothing to do with the person swinging the chicken.

And I'm happy for you that you are in a good place and not searching anymore. All the best.

gryp

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 12:13 am

Of course it's the same story. Whoever heard of a chicken dying mid-swing? Not a typical Kapporos story.

It did not take place in a big city, and that's why I said, you're assuming wrongly.

It doesn't matter that you didn't know who you were talking about, you are trying to take unknown (to you) details of the story and make it fit your anti-chicken-for-kapporos agenda. Whether you meant it or not, you accused people of things they didn't deserve.

If chickens crammed in crates for days caused chickens to die (and I'm not saying that's okay, to have chickens stuffed in crates like that), we'd be hearing this story all week, every year. But we don't. Every person who heard this story was shocked.

FranticFrummie

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 4:16 am

gryp wrote:

Just out of sheer curiousity, when a chicken dies in mid swing, is that considered a bad omen or something? Sad

I most certainly hope not, but I'm not very familiar with this tradition, and I'm wondering if it might mean something symbolic.

Even the best raised chickens can still get bacterial infections and viruses (just like we do), and if that were the case, the stress might have been too much for the poor thing. Birds are weird creatures, and can drop dead of heart failure if they get too upset or stressed. Anyone who has tried to save a baby who has fallen out of it's nest knows that the survival rate is just about nil. Their hearts just can't handle it.

BTW, DH says that there's always some chickens in the crates that arrive dead. The stress of transportation always makes them lose some on the trip. Anyone in the poultry industry can tell you that. It's only to be expected when they pack them in like sardines.

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 8:15 am

Raizle wrote:

This is what I learned too, in a chaseedishe school, not Lubavitch.[/quote]

Maybe it's my inner Litvak but the one time I did kaparos with a chicken (I was in sem and sowing my wild oats) I guessed I missed out. I didn't transfer my sins but focused on how all that could/should have been happening to me and I hoped that Iwould be worthy of the great gift of a second chance I was being granted. Dang. That year's sins have surely been haunting me since.[/quote]
read it again please

THERE IS NO TRANSFERRING OF SINS!

seriously? if only life was that easy[/quote]

Yes, I was agreeing with you.
And anyway, what sins were left after I left them with the fish?

BinahYeteirah

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 9:45 am

I'm Lubavitcher, but I don't do kapparos with chickens because of the tzaar baalei chaim. I think the conditions are worse during kapparos than they are on poultry farms. I've seen many videos of factory farm conditions. It's horrific, but the buildings are designed for the chickens with fans to keep them at a semi-healthy temperature and more regular feeding and watering. I don't eat chicken at any time. Even buying chicken that is "free-range" does not eliminate all the cruel things they do, but I can somewhat understand forgoing kaparos and still eating chicken during the year.

I don't have major theological issues with the practice of kapparos in general. I just see it as something to meditate upon, not a literal transfer of sins. Sounds like Yushka-Chicken (YC, or JC, as you like); hopefully no one here is into that kind of thing.

chavs

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 11:08 am

In theory I have no problem with karbonos when they arent just thrown away but get eaten after they get shechted.
However I have an issue with the conditions the chickens are kept in and as a result I use money. I cant imagine that my kapara would be worth much if I used a chicken that had been treated the way the chickens get treated at kapporos nowadays.

I feel even stronger about it now that we have our own chickens.
We have 3 chickens for eggs and they each have little personalities and are a lot more intelligent then most people give them credit for.

I was absolutely horrified by the other thread about the hitting, kicking and singing (spelled right?) and one poor bird who was burned alive. I am looking at my own chickens right now and am so happy that at least my 3 girls will have happy free lives and serve us by giving us eggs that we can get energy from to live and serve H-shem. Bless their feathery socks;-)

PinkFridge

Fri, Oct 07 2011, 12:38 pm

chavs wrote:

Are you still horrified by a gentle tap or singeing done properly (I.e. according to the minhag [not mine] with no tzaar baalei chayim)?

BTW, do you eat meat or poultry?

chavs

Sat, Oct 08 2011, 7:44 pm

Pink Fridge, first of all thank you I couldnt find the right spelling because singing is a real word as well.

I have no personal experience with singeing or tapping, but if it doesnt cause pain the the animal I have no objection with it. I think its problematic that there isnt proper education about how to do it properly so as proofed in the other thread one bird ended up being burned alive and somewhere else a child kicked a chikcen several feet because of lack of being able to tap gently.

Not that I have to justify myself to you, but here goes a long explanation if you actually care (whichI cant imagine you really do).
As to what we eat, the eggs we are are from free range birds only (our own), the meat and milk are from cows who live a relatively decent lives. Apparently they are going to introduce 'battery farming for cows here and when they do I am planning on stopping t eat meat or drink milk from such animals. If there is not going to be cholov yisroel milk we'll have to get calcium from somewhere else and, protein from eggs, peanut butter and all the other sources one can get this from.

We do unfortunately eat chicken that were battery farmed. I will bli neder stop eating this and I am working on convincing dh to stop for our whole family. The biggest problem standing in the way of this is that both dd and I have issues of anaemia and dd doesnt eat meat, she doesnt like it and when served just doesnt eat. She does otoh eat 1/4 of a chicken at a time.
For me the problem with increasing meat (which I'd have to if I stopped eating chicken) is that I am very overweight and meat is more fatty and that I dont want to raise my cholesterol.
We dont have the option of eating free range chicken unfortunately.
For these reasons it will be hard to convince him but I am trying to think of how.

The reason I dont do kapporos with a chicken is because it is actually kept in worse conditions then the chickens are kept in at a battery farm (and thats saying something) and I dont want to support this in anyways shape or form if I can help it. As I said for the above reasons we still eat chickens but a) they arent kept in the same conditions as kapara chickens are kept and b) unfortunatly its not easy to get around it atm although I am trying to work out a way. No one's perfect but I try to do what I can.

Last edited by chavs on Sat, Oct 08 2011, 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

Raizle

Sat, Oct 08 2011, 8:23 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

Okay, I tried to be nice and apologize. Now I'm done with that.

I didn't ask for any apologies but since you mention it you apologized to gryp about something to do with her facebook post. I'm not sure what that has to do with me or the rest of what we are discussing

As to the rest of your post, please provide an actual source that the kaporos we do on erev Yom kipur comes from the concept of the kapora of the Azalzel.
askmoses isn't a source, sorry.

..but even if you do bring a source to connect it I'd still like to see a source that says our sins are transferred to the chicken. Yes I read the posukim in Vayikra about the Azalzel, that still doesn't tell me anything about the chickents. The difference between the two is clear. The goat is thrown of a cliff, the and the person who throws it dies within the year (they threw a goral to make sure the chose only someone who was going to die within the year anyway)
Whereas the chickens are eaten, and the whole concept of kaporas erev Y"K is that the people doing it should live not die.

Nowhere in the wording of the tefila we say at kapores does it say anything about the chickens being like the goat.
Nowhere in the wording does it say anything about transferring the sins to the chicken (like it does in the pasukim about the goat)
The only thing it says is that if the person is supposed to die that year then let the chicken go in his/her place.

Another important point for everyone to take note of is that kapores and chickens do nothing for you if one has not done proper teshuva as well.

PinkFridge

Sat, Oct 08 2011, 9:51 pm

Thanks Chavs. I appreciate the explanation. FTR, I don't buy veal anymore myself.

As for all the reference to transferring sins - I really thought it was all symbolic. Yes, there's the se'ir l'Azazel, etc. but do you really think the thread would turn white if there wasn't some serious teshuva on the part of the people?

Newsflash: NJ wildlife is reporting the annual early fall increase in diseased fish caught in Lake Carasaljo. (If fishing's done there. Substitute what you'd like.)

ally

Sun, Oct 09 2011, 5:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

chavs wrote:

Are you still horrified by a gentle tap or singeing done properly (I.e. according to the minhag [not mine] with no tzaar baalei chayim)?

BTW, do you eat meat or poultry?

As a disclaimer, I am not vegetarian and do not generally think much of comparisons between animals and humans. However, when I think about singeing and 'tapping'...I can't help but wonder, isn't it just too dangerous? If you really cared about tzaar baalei chaim, would you really risk touching fire to the birds feathers? I can't imagine any scenario where anyone would light their hair on fire while still attached to their heads and I don't think any such minhag would survive. Same with kicking (Although, there is the minhag of "whipping" with a gartel before yk...this is generally performed among grown ups). There is just too much potential for this minhag to go wrong. We put up so many gedarim around gedarim around so many mitzvos...that I can't understand being so careless with something that is so fundamental, it is even included in the sheva mitzvos bnei noach.