Spinoff I grew up Satmar amother enabled

amother

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 12:18 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

amother wrote:

OP I'm a different amother who also grew up in Williamsburg and has left the community.
My husband identifies as totally Chassidish like before and I identify as more modern Chassidish (although I feel much closer to Yiddishkeit and Torah now and consider myself less Modern). We respect each other's choices and we're OK with how we each choose to identify as.

You need to connect to people who will understand you. It is very important. There are many such people. You also would need Daas Torah who will understand you and tell you how to deal with your parents because that part is not easy. You want to live Yiddishkeit b'Simcha and not resentful yet you want to do that in the best possible way to avoid stepping on Kibbud av v'aim as much as possible.

You can go forward in your life. You can get educated. You can be happy!! Don't look back. Look forward!
I am in the process. I am learning and exploring. I am forging a stronger connection with Yiddishkeit.

On the other hand I try not to talk against my former community to random people. I do not agree at all with most of their mentality but firstly I had to let go of that and focus on changing myself. If I can do anything to change things in the community I would, but I know just venting is not going to help. It just makes me angry. I know people there who are happy and although I cannot imagine that I have let go.
Focus on yourself now! How you can live your life to your fullest. I understand you're angry but now you must focus your strength on how to go ahead in your life.

I am here for you and I'm sure there are others on here as well.

You sound like a very wise woman
All the power to you

Thank you. That is very kind of you to say.

amother

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

which minhogim did u & do u find the most difficult to keep?
do u still identify with satmer? if not have u joined another frum sect?
are u married? how do u plan on raising ur kids?
sorry for being a nosy body, but u offered!

Op here. Thanks for your questions.
Minhagim that were difficult to keep-- the seamed stockings, the shaved hair, the whole b'show process, not being able to see my chason during our engagement, I absolutely hated cleaning for Pesach (we turned everything upside down, inside out even things that we wouldnt be touching on Pesach), wearing a shvimkleid, these are the ones I can think of right now.

I do not currently identify with Satmar but you know what they say--you can take a girl out of Satmar but you cant take Satmar out of the girl. yup, true for me. I have been so conditioned in so many ways that its hard to live life outside of the community.

I'd rather not answer any questions in regard to marriage or children as I think it would be identifiable and there are a lot of people on here who want to chop my head off right now so I'd rather play it safe for now. I'm sorry I have to do that but I hope you understand why.

Thanks again and feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

I think u are brave for speaking up. I think it can also open the eyes of other satmer women going thru similar hardships. at the same time -u are speaking of ur personal feelings, and not judging the whole community. if discussing your past will in anyway help u move forward -go for it.

and yes -I understand why u don't want to give any identifying info.

what on earth is a shvimkleid??

does every woman have to shave? what about after the wedding -do some let their hair grow?

thanks 4 sharing!

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 4:09 am

Cookies n Cream wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

Why do many Satmar girls look more provocative in seams then regular hosiery

If Satmer(or any) girls look provocative, it is because of their clothing, hair , makeup or a combination.
It is definitely not due to their seams..

If you have no idea what seamed stockings connotes in the outside world that might be true.
BTW I am not saying that seamed stockings should not be worn. just that it should only be on the very thick brown stockings, and preferably only in the shtetle, if you really don't want your women attracting highly untznius attention.

chani8

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 4:16 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

OP... ..I guess it's what you're used to . I always found black to be ugly and blah..
But many non jews have told me ther seams is exciting and tantalizing and were very surprised to hear that some religious girls wear it for modesty rather than fashion sense

Then kind of seamed stocking that satmar wear are not the same as the seamed nylons that are considered provocative. So we can let this one go, now.

The seamed stockings that satmar wear are very non-flattering.

ETA - I guess I should've read page two of this thread where some apparently wear see-thru nylons with a seam. shock

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 4:26 am

chani8 wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

That is not true. Although the community would prefer that they all wore palms it is more common to drop the particular type of stockings than to drop the seams. And more accepted in the community. From what I have seen, typically married woman would be afraid to tell her mother that she switched type of stockings, or for her mother to notice, but she would have to be very "rebellious" to drop the seams completely.

It is true that palms with seamd doesn't look particularly s-xy. But I have seen on plenty of occasions very chassidshely dressed women (sheitel and a hat) with seams that did not look dowdy and could very easily be attracting the wrong kind of attention.

Also, any seams are going to attract attention, even if the overall look is not s-xy. Because in most people's minds, in the world seams= s-xy.

http://forums.welltrainedmind......dism/

http://boards.straightdope.com.....76491

People should do whatever they think brings them closer to Hashem, but if they claim to be worried about "hirhurim" they should probably worry about what people think when they look at them. If they are outside of their community even for a dr's appointment that would include those outside their community as well. Also, they might want to consider if they need to be outside their community if these two values (wearing seams and not being sensually dressed) conflict in a certain place.

smilethere

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 5:03 am

amother wrote:

Just wanted to add about the black tights on shabbos that my kids as well as some kids on my block (I live in kj) wear black tights on shabbos, I would say probably till 10 or 11 years for sure....

Sorry but I'm not remotely Satmar, and yet I wouldn't put on black tights for my kids on shabbos at all. Weekday yes, but the same way I wouldn't put on a coloured tablecloth on shabbos but only white, I consider it being mekadesh shabbos for my girls to wear white tights.

myself

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 6:11 am

I assume that most FFB chasiddish girls have absolutely no clue that seams have any connotation in the outside world. And about the white tights on Shabbos - many chasiddish schools do not allow their students to wear black tights on Shabbos. I find that many people attribute their misgivings on their particular chasidus when in fact it's just a generally widely accepted minhag for many in the chasiddishe velt.

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 7:51 am

Inspired wrote:

Cookies n Cream wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

Why do many Satmar girls look more provocative in seams then regular hosiery

If Satmer(or any) girls look provocative, it is because of their clothing, hair , makeup or a combination.
It is definitely not due to their seams..

I know exactly what seams connotate, but if a girl is wearing refined clothing and her hair and makeup is done in an eidel manner, she's not looking provocative just because she's wearing seams.

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 7:57 am

Cookies n Cream wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Cookies n Cream wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

Why do many Satmar girls look more provocative in seams then regular hosiery

If Satmer(or any) girls look provocative, it is because of their clothing, hair , makeup or a combination.
It is definitely not due to their seams..

I know exactly what seams connotate, but if a girl is wearing refined clothing and her hair and makeup is done in an eidel manner, she's not looking provocative just because she's wearing seams.

To you. We are not talking about what things look like to you, someone from inside the chassidishe community. .
Did you read the link I posted? The guy figured an aidelly dressed woman with a covered sheitel could not have possibly been the chossid's wife in part because of her seamed stockings. Look also at the other linked thread, with the poll.
Have you asked many non jewish men in manhattan what they think when they see the typical chassidishe viebel in seams and her typical clothing?
Are you arguing that seams in themselves do not attract attention? Do you not think that seams draw attention to the leg?
Besides all that has any mother, grandfather, rav or rebbetzin ever told a girl, take off the seams now, your clothing isn't aidel enough? Or do they instead say "well at least she is still wearing seams..."?

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:03 am

Inspired wrote:

Cookies n Cream wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Cookies n Cream wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

Why do many Satmar girls look more provocative in seams then regular hosiery

If Satmer(or any) girls look provocative, it is because of their clothing, hair , makeup or a combination.
It is definitely not due to their seams..

I know exactly what seams connotate, but if a girl is wearing refined clothing and her hair and makeup is done in an eidel manner, she's not looking provocative just because she's wearing seams.

I just clicked on the links.
In the first one, it sounds to me that the 2 women he met, were NOT dressed refined (one with a knee length dress, and the other walking to her husband in a provacative manner). The second link with the poll is not proving anything. The voters are commenting on how the people that they know that wear seams for fashion look very sxy. I'm sure those people don't look refined in the first place, so the seams just add to "their look".

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:13 am

Okay. You must be right. No woman who wears seams and dresses "refined" has men ever looking at her inappropriately because of her seams. My bad.
(FTR that was sarcasm, but I don't think this discussion is going anywhere...)

What about the women who don't dress "refined" by your standards, yet, on the basis of the community expectation still wear seams? Should they stop? Should they stay in the shtetl only? Does anyone consider this at all?

and back to the question I asked above:
has any mother, grandfather, rav or rebbetzin ever told a girl, take off the seams now, your clothing isn't aidel enough? Or do they instead say "well at least she is still wearing seams..."?

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:19 am

FTR I feel very bad for the women who are straddling the border between chassidishe dress and non and they feel tznius enough in their knee length skirt, short covered sheitel, 2 shirts. The minimum of their community. They think their biggest rebellion is a drop of blush and their skirt being the absolute max of 4 inches below the knee and never longer, and a little too much interest in what is stylish. They don't like the "nebby looking" stockings everyone else wears so they go for something a little more sheer, or even black. But they keep the seams because chalila, they wouldn't want to give baba a heart attack. And they go dressed like this to manhattan to the dr. and they don't realize what they look like to the men who see them, the thoughts these men are having about them. And no one is ever going to tell them.

tissues

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:21 am

Inspired, you are right. Seams is associated with the dregs of society. Those who wear Palm tights with seams, the seam is nearly invisible and not at all provocative. For those who wear any other kind of tights with seams, it is my very humble opinion that they should not wear seams because of its look. The worst is those who wear sheer black tights with dark black seams. I've seen it. It's horrifying to think what this woman shopping in Manhattan will encounter...

ETA, I see you just posted the same thing!

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:39 am

Inspired wrote:

I have no opinion on this matter.
I was responding to naturalmom5's question.

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 8:51 am

chani8 wrote:

amother wrote:

My understanding of the seams is so that it is very apparent it is not bare legs.

I am not chassidush but my husband also does not want me in stockings unless it is obvious that I am wearing stockings (by the color).

So, you go either bare legged or in black tights?? Confused

For chassidm in America black is never refined. It is stylish. Unless you're rebbish.
Even if you wear 70 denier black, you still must be doing it to "be stylish" not for tznius because you know black is clearly not your legs.

Cookies, its telling that you are ignoring my direct question about the community standard of what happens when someone keeps seams but everything else is not quite up to par.

Isramom8

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 9:07 am

This is a very respectful thread.

I would like to comment respectfully on these words of the OP:
Minhagim that were difficult to keep-- the seamed stockings, the shaved hair, the whole b'show process, not being able to see my chason during our engagement, I absolutely hated cleaning for Pesach (we turned everything upside down, inside out even things that we wouldnt be touching on Pesach), wearing a shvimkleid, these are the ones I can think of right now.

I am not sure why these were considered by you to be so difficult to keep, if you were raised that way. In mainstream Israeli Litvish Chareidi society, things are admittedly not excatly the same, but similar in many ways:

1. Stockings are expected. You can wear thigh-highs or even knee-highs if they are not detectable.
2. A woman's hair is covered completely after marriage. Many women cover at home and even while sleeping at night.
3. B'show takes the form of sit-in shidduch dates, which are very common.
4. Seeing one's chosson or kallah during engagement is limited to a degree.
5. Pesach cleaning is ideally pretty thorough, to the degree that family members are strong and healthy enough to handle it.
6. Unless a pool is mamash completely covered on top and on the sides, a robe or cover-up is commonly worn over the swimsuit. Many women feel most comfortable covering their swimsuits in any case.

This is how my family lives. We're not uptight. We're not ignorant of the world. We relate with all types of people. We use the internet responsibly. We go on cool trips. We're fun!