Spinoff I grew up Satmar amother enabled

MaBelleVie

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 9:22 am

Isramom8 wrote:

This is a very respectful thread.

I would like to comment respectfully on these words of the OP:
Minhagim that were difficult to keep-- the seamed stockings, the shaved hair, the whole b'show process, not being able to see my chason during our engagement, I absolutely hated cleaning for Pesach (we turned everything upside down, inside out even things that we wouldnt be touching on Pesach), wearing a shvimkleid, these are the ones I can think of right now.

I am not sure why these were considered by you to be so difficult to keep, if you were raised that way. In mainstream Israeli Litvish Chareidi society, things are admittedly not excatly the same, but similar in many ways:

1. Stockings are expected. You can wear thigh-highs or even knee-highs if they are not detectable.
2. A woman's hair is covered completely after marriage. Many women cover at home and even while sleeping at night.
3. B'show takes the form of sit-in shidduch dates, which are very common.
4. Seeing one's chosson or kallah during engagement is limited to a degree.
5. Pesach cleaning is ideally pretty thorough, to the degree that family members are strong and healthy enough to handle it.
6. Unless a pool is mamash completely covered on top and on the sides, a robe or cover-up is commonly worn over the swimsuit. Many women feel most comfortable covering their swimsuits in any case.

This is how my family lives. We're not uptight. We're not ignorant of the world. We relate with all types of people. We use the internet responsibly. We go on cool trips. We're fun!

Respectfully, you are trying to make comparisons that are apples and oranges, not the continuum that you're trying to make it seem. Life in the shtetl is an entire world that bears little resemblance to yours. Your last paragraph clearly demonstrates that.

Isramom8

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 9:41 am

MaBelleVie, I doubt that. When my father was only 'traditional" in the 1970s, he was hired by Agudath Israel of America in a professional educational capacity. People warned him not to take the job because "those people are really different". Agudah was made up of both Litvish and various Chassidish groups.

My father took the job. He experienced that once you got to know them, they were not too "different"! Over the years he got to know Agudah people better and better, and became very strengthened in Yiddishkeit through them.

Our practices are a continuum. It is not apples and oranges.

MaBelleVie

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:01 am

Isramom8 wrote:

We're not in the 70s anymore.

tzfatisha

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:08 am

surely a chassidic lifestyle is not just a dress code?...
what are the differences in approach - eg dovening, education, halacha, thought processes... does everything have to be vetted /approved of by the rebbe? or just certain things..
I knew someone who had spent years renovating a house, and within a year of moving in properly their rebbe told them to move to a different town altogether.. I don't know if they asked the rebbe and then he told them.. or he just told them stum...
why is there this 'we are better than you' type of attitude in the various groups?
it all seems so petty to an outsider...
I posted this elsewhere too.. why is it such a big deal (or appears to be) for someone to want to switch derechs.. or even just look at another way of doing things? - it's not like someone is starting to take drugs, or whatever -yet it seems that parents/family tear their hair out.. or threaten to sit shiva or whatever.. when I read about this sort of thing I just can't understand it.. as long as someone is frum and keeping mitzvas why is it so important that someone wants to do it a bit different from their parents/family...
also why is it ok --- or not so disapproved of - for some of these groups to commit fraud, avoid taxes etc in business? I thought that the first question you get asked in shamayim is 'did you keep honest weights' - that means in business you must be scrupulous - and yet it doesn't seem to be a mitzva people take so seriously .. as compared to say -tzniut for women...

amother

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:14 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

Respectfully I would like to contradict you on that. I live in the shtetl, we are not uptight, I go on cool trips, I use the internet responsibly and I don't hide the fact that I have it from anyone including my kids schools. I eat out with my husband, my kids ride bikes and I don't feel restricted and uptight and naive as you think we all do over here. Of course there are extremists but arnt there extremsists everywhere. I hope I came across respectfully...

Barbara

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:19 am

Isramom8 wrote:

My husband listens to sports radio in the morning. One day, maybe a week ago, one of the commentators had posted his opinion on Twitter -- IIRC, he said that the final Sunday of the Masters Tournament is his favorite day of sports of the year. People were livid. How dare he. He was wrong. No, he pointed out. He cannot be wrong about his opinion, about what he enjoys. Others may feel differently, others may not enjoy the Masters, but no one has the right to tell him what he enjoys, or how he feels.

Well, same thing here. If the OP doesn't enjoy things, if she found them oppressive or whatever she thought, that's her right. No one can tell her she's wrong, or express incredulity. You can say that you feel differently. You can even say that her feelings are not held by most people, if that's true. But you cannot appropriately invalidate her feelings.

Sahmom

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:20 am

tzfatisha wrote:

I will not attempt to answer all your questions. I will leave that to the OP. however as far as why parents give a hard time for kids that want to be different....
1-I think they feel embarrassed by their own family that they were not able to raise their kids to follow along while their friends and siblings did it.
They view their kids as an extension of themselves rather than individuals.
2- they think that once you change just a bit then you will go completely OTD
3-they just dont want to accept it
Some reasons I was able to think of.

Barbara

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 10:25 am

I am curious about the bikes.

In the thread about the segregated park, some posters stated that it would give girls an opportunity to ride bikes. That was immediately refuted, without any objection, with posters stated that Satmar girls are never allowed to ride bikes (and indeed, IIRC, that Satmar boys would not do so, but I could be mistaken there). Now, there are people saying that in Kiryat Yoel and other Satmar communities, girls are allowed to ride bikes freely, with boys around, pretty much until adolescence, and, indeed, that this is the norm without exception.

Can someone speak to this matter?

naturalmom5

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 11:20 am

Inspired wrote:

chani8 wrote:

naturalmom5 wrote:

OP... ..I guess it's what you're used to . I always found black to be ugly and blah..
But many non jews have told me ther seams is exciting and tantalizing and were very surprised to hear that some religious girls wear it for modesty rather than fashion sense

Then kind of seamed stocking that satmar wear are not the same as the seamed nylons that are considered provocative. So we can let this one go, now.

The seamed stockings that satmar wear are very non-flattering.

That is not true. Although the community would prefer that they all wore palms it is more common to drop the particular type of stockings than to drop the seams. And more accepted in the community. From what I have seen, typically married woman would be afraid to tell her mother that she switched type of stockings, or for her mother to notice, but she would have to be very "rebellious" to drop the seams completely.

It is true that palms with seamd doesn't look particularly s-xy. But I have seen on plenty of occasions very chassidshely dressed women (sheitel and a hat) with seams that did not look dowdy and could very easily be attracting the wrong kind of attention.

Also, any seams are going to attract attention, even if the overall look is not s-xy. Because in most people's minds, in the world seams= s-xy.

http://forums.welltrainedmind......dism/

http://boards.straightdope.com.....76491

People should do whatever they think brings them closer to Hashem, but if they claim to be worried about "hirhurim" they should probably worry about what people think when they look at them. If they are outside of their community even for a dr's appointment that would include those outside their community as well. Also, they might want to consider if they need to be outside their community if these two values (wearing seams and not being sensually dressed) conflict in a certain place.

Thank you inspired . This is exactly what I meant. But I was too timid to spell out all the details lol

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 11:25 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Respectfully, it is not the same, not even really similar. Until you have spoken to a few people from that world (at least) I don't think you are going to get it. I have spoken to many people, both disillusioned and happy to stay more or less as they were raised, from that world. If they believe in it they own what it is, or at least they really should, IMO. As someone who isn't from that world I see that it works for many, maybe even most. But as any derech it doesn't work for everyone brought up in it. It is very straight and narrow, deviation is not well tolerated. Much more so than charedi litvish Israeli. Why do you insist on saying it is similar?

If the OP found it oppressive, believe her. For many (most) people raised in that derech it is fine and they are happy. It doesn't have to be so similar to your derech for that to be the case.

Barbara, afaik neither boys nor girls bike ride in Monroe.

Inspired

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 11:31 am

Barabara, to answer more specifically. There is the "community norm" and then there are things that people do anyway even though it might be frowned at.
For some one to receive flak for doing something that isn't an accepted norm in the community it is the overall picture that counts more. If a family will let their younger kids ride bikes but in general they fit in, are eidel and from a "normal family" something like that might be ignored. But as the list of things "not the norm" grows they will get the message from the community that what they are doing is not ok.
You participated in the charedim and army thread. you can understand that as a klal 18 year old charedi young men do not join the army. No one is kicking anyone out of the charedi club if they do, there are individuals. I am sure you can understand the difference between individuals and the community standard.

Isramom8

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 12:10 pm

Inspired wrote: If they believe in it they own what it is, or at least they really should, IMO. As someone who isn't from that world I see that it works for many, maybe even most. But as any derech it doesn't work for everyone brought up in it. It is very straight and narrow, deviation is not well tolerated. Much more so than charedi litvish Israeli. Why do you insist on saying it is similar?

This is exactly my point, and you put it so well. In ANY community, if you don't make the practices YOURS, but just feel imposed upon, you will react with resentment. It's not about Satmar, or another Chassidus, or lehavdil being a Mormon.

It is possible that deviation is less well tolerated in certain groups than in others. But resentment says more about the individual's perceptions than about the society - whatever society. People mistakenly place a lot of their problems in life on their religious group, on their parents, on the weather. It's really about what's inside the person. Realizing that is an important step towards healing. It's not like if you're free to be secular and wealthy you're guaranteed a great life. Look at all the suicidal and cleptomanic and drugged out famous actors.

wifenmother

Wed, Apr 17 2013, 12:37 pm

I completely agree with Isramom8. Although I did not grow up in Williamsburg, I have many relatives there and I went to a Satmar school. You will find parents that 'impose' their lifestyle on their children in every community, even in the secular world. I grew up with tremendous respect for my parents and the chinuch I was given. I do not view them as oppressive, and I'm not a 'naive' girl. I have 'made it' in the professional world. Each of my sisters set up a different home; each one is an erlicha, torah'dig home with a different style and different chassidus. One still wears her Palm, one wore it until varicose veins forced her to wear 'regular beige colors' but without the seams because she needed some more 'support' in her stockings. But they are all a nachas to our parents who let each of us 'find ourselves' and 'want' to live with 'oppressive' minhagim. And this is the general 'norm' in most of my classmates families.

I am not however invalidating the OP's opinions and the way she views her experiences. Her parents may have come across as oppressive resulting in her viewing Hashem and yiddishkeit in that context. That would explain why she is struggling with where she belongs, making friends, and seeking direction in life which she clearly stated in her posts.