Spinoff I grew up Satmar amother enabled

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:18 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

amother wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

IS ANYONE ACTUALLY READING WHAT I AM SAYING?

I'm not asking about minhagim like head shaving or whatever. Zei gezunt if that floats your boat. I'm asking about views and opinions. Like "female bus drivers are harlots." Or "soldiers should not be counted for a minyan." Do you agree or disagree with these statements? If not, why does no one say anything?

I am not Satmar

I disagree with the statements that were made by some Rav and I think they are despicable.

Then read up about him and talk to any competent therapist to see if he didnt have ocd. fwiw, his own mother was concerned about him and had she had imamother then she would have been pushed to take him to a therapist for an evaluation. just saying.

What does this have to do with my post. If Rav Yoel Z"TL put out some pashkvilim today then we all should be scared, very scared. He hasn't been living for over 33 years.

Yes, I am sorry, I didnt realize that. as I said, this thread is getting really confusing to follow. Anyway, since you mention it, I will say that R Yoel hasnt been alive for 33 years and what worked when he was alive does not nec work today. He made all this rules when he came to america after the war when his followers where broken and traumatized from everything they had just gone through so they werent nec in their right minds to not follow everything he said. He should have gotten them into therapy so they can heal from the trauma they experienced but unfortunately he took advantage of these broken hearted people and started the satmar community. However, this generation and the generations after are not traumatized by any war and deserve better. Its time for change.

happybeingamom

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:21 pm

sequoia wrote:

Again:

A Satmar rav put up these posters yesterday. People were upset.

Some of the people upset were chareidim.

Why don't they say something?

Do we know the statements that this Rav said has the Haskamah/approval of the two Satmar Rebbes. Until we know that then the Rav's statements have nothing to do with Satmar.

Anyone can get up and say something but that doesn't mean they have the authority to speak for a Chasidus.

Last edited by happybeingamom on Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

happybeingamom

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

amother wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I am not Satmar

I disagree with the statements that were made by some Rav and I think they are despicable.

What does this have to do with my post. If Rav Yoel Z"TL put out some pashkvilim today then we all should be scared, very scared. He hasn't been living for over 33 years.

I think this is a very unfair what you wrote here. Rav Yoel did what he felt is right whether we agree with it or not. That is not manipulation.

Most Holocaust survivors did not get therapy it was a different world then.

Mama Bear

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 3:23 pm

sequoia wrote:

Again:

A Satmar rav put up these posters yesterday. People were upset.

Some of the people upset were chareidim.

Why don't they say something?

None of us here in NY know anything about this. I dont even know who that Rav is. What happens in Ey had nothing to do with what happens in NY. The mentality there is even too different for Satmar in the US to comprehend. I disagree with 90% of what the Satmar and other zealots in EY say about non chareidim or whatever.

vintagebknyc wrote:

can someone explain to me how the satmar schools are allowed to teach their students so little?

They dont teach 'so little'. I got a full curriculum of Business math, accounting, typing/computers, English studies - grammar, creative writing, vocabulary, reading comprehension, literature; science, geography, current issues, First Aid and health, CPR, world and US history, science, and civics. We didnt do regents but we learned plenty. It's not 'so little' by any stretch of the imagination.

vintagebknyc

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 4:04 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

can someone explain to me how the satmar schools are allowed to teach their students so little?

and the men?

Mama Bear

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 4:32 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

can someone explain to me how the satmar schools are allowed to teach their students so little?

and the men?

I admit, the boys learn a lot less. But it's not possible to learn more; they have a FULL DAY of limudei kodesh til about 4 pm, then an hour or two of limudei chol. After bar mitzvah there's no limudei chol at all.

Lmaaseh they only get govt funding for textbooks, lunch programs etc - not for the school per se. As do most if not all private religious schools.

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 10:09 pm

amother wrote:

Thousands of Jews lived in America pre war. A very large percentage assimilated and very few were shomer Shabbos. If not for the strict rules of R' Yoel, and some other rabbonim, the same would happen today.

DrMom

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 10:33 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Algebra and geometry were introduced in wmsbg after I graduated.
Pray tell, where in 'real life' would I need to use either of these 2 subjects? I'm 36 and it hasn't yet come up once.

To the amother who is advocating that the parents complain: apparently the parent body is okay with this setup. The graduates who aren't, dont send their kids to this school. Whoever sends their kids to this school is okay with the educational levels.

There was no algebra or geometry in school? At all? This was taught in 8th-10th grade when I attended public school.

Algebra is used everywhere in daily life.

Figuring out how much you need to earn to be able to have $x when you retire if your returement fund rate is y%.

How to scale up a recipe for 4 to feed 30.

etc.

Furthermore, not having any background in these fundamental math subjects means you are basically unable to pursue higher education in any science or engineering field without a lot of hard extra-curricular make-up work.

And this was in the girls' school -- the one that actually had limudei chol? What did the boys learn?

Were these schools accredited by NY State?

tzfatisha

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:48 am

Quote:

and the men?

I admit, the boys learn a lot less. But it's not possible to learn more; they have a FULL DAY of limudei kodesh til about 4 pm, then an hour or two of limudei chol. After bar mitzvah there's no limudei chol at all.

well - surely they at least need to know maths, civics, and english- and of course some science/history/geography at high school level....not just elementary/middle school level
as I understand it the rambam (no small potato) was very well educated in maths, science and languages (I don't know what else) and believed that everyone (I assume he meant boys - as girls weren't usually educated very much anywhere in his day) should study these subjects...
and if so then.. surely even more so today..?

intrigued

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 5:46 am

amother wrote:

Raisin wrote:

tzfatisha wrote:

I agree that if people go to high school they should be able to come out with a high school diploma if that is how the system works.
it's completely different in the UK - there you have to get GCSEs at 16 in anything from 5 - 10+ subjects each tested separately, followed at 18 by A levels - 2 or more (no more than 4) which are again individual subjects examined separately - so you can pass in some subjects and not in others.. and you get the certificates for the subjects you pass.
eg I have 2 A levels one in general studies and the second in history.
then you go to uni to study one subject.. eg history.. nothing else.

the system here in israel is similar at least as far as uni is concerned where you apply to study the subject you want .. medicine, law, literature, etc

just so you know, I am pretty sure satmar girls schools in the UK only go up to 5th form. Ie they do gcses and then finish school and do a year of sem. in other words, they finish 2 years before everyone else.

The London school actually has a pretty high standard and many girls take A levels in seminary.

All the schools finish at fifth form here. Lubavitch offer one extra year some years my year it didn't but I think nowadays there is always a 6th form but very few pupils take the A Levels and if they do it's in their own time . Also I believe Yesodey Hatorah (a mix of Chasidish and Litvish the most open-minded school after Lubavitch) also started offering an extra year in recent years.

Interestingly enough those who go on to London Sem and I think even Satmar Sem do A Levels there. Thats is what they are busy spending their year (or 2) doing. It's sort of like a 6th and upper 6th college. Those girls who go onto out of country Seminaries are the ones who don't do the A Levels.

All my information is from 5 years ago so things may have changed.

myself

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 6:05 am

amother wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

amother wrote:

happybeingamom wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I am not Satmar

I disagree with the statements that were made by some Rav and I think they are despicable.

What does this have to do with my post. If Rav Yoel Z"TL put out some pashkvilim today then we all should be scared, very scared. He hasn't been living for over 33 years.

I am absolutely shocked that someone would have the audacity to say that about a world renowned gadol who she never met. Neither have I met him but AFAIK he was revered by all during his lifetime and thereafter.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 6:11 am

I'm not satmar and I didn't want to go to college. 12 years of school was more than enough for me.
Dh who did not learn any secular studies in school can read and do math way better than me. While I got a 94 on my math regent, when it comes to 'basic math' my dh is def. The winner. He learnt all his math from gemara and is excellent at it!! He has an excellent way of talking and he learnt it all from artscroll...
Now, dh and I both have excellent non college jobs. I run a great camp and have 50 employees.
Dh has a position that is most suited for him.
Both us do not feel deprived with no college.

Anon cuz of relevant information

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 6:39 am

DrMom wrote:

Satmar does teach algebra and basic geometry today to the girls. I would say their overall secular education is adequate. No, you will not graduate with an accredited diploma, nor have Ivy Leagues knocking your doors down, but if someone truly wants to pursue higher education, they have a sufficient foundation to build upon.

Also, this IS Satmar, after all. This is their school, for their kind, for their hashkafos. It is rare for any student to pursue a degree, and even rarer for anyone to pursue 'real' college, aka non-Sarah Schneirer/Raizel Reit/Machon La'parnasa, etc. It is not their goal, their desire, or their intention to prepare their students for any more. The vast, overwhelming majority of students become secretaries or teachers after they graduate, work till they have 2-3 kids, and then become SAHM's. I'm generalizing of course, but that's perfectly typical of a Satmar grad, and they are more then well enough prepared for that.

If someone truly wishes for more, then pick a different school that matches your hashkafos. Generally, if your parents are Satmar, you will be raised along the lines of those hashkafahs, and this will be the norm and expectations. Your average 12th grader will think you fell off the moon if you ask her about her higher education plans. (aside from those heimish special ed tracks and accelerated clep kind of stuff) Of course, there will always be children that are different, who feel what worked for their parents will not work for them - but in all fairness, it is up to the parent to ensure their child gets what he/she needs. It is not the fault of the school that they don't provide what a minuscule percentage of their student body needs, over the requirements of the rest of the crowd. It's the fault of the parents who continue sending their children to a place not right for them.

And I write all this as a graduate from Satmar Williamsburg who is pursuing a 'real' 4 year degree in a state college. My real gripe with Satmar is actually the lack of a true kodesh education for the girls...but that's an entirely different issue.

flowerpower

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 6:39 am

amother wrote:

Reb Yoel wasn't just a rebbe. He was a tzaddik hador. Millions who weren't satmer admired him and went to him for brochos and advice. When he came to america he had to make strict rules for
His followers. America was an assimilated place. Most of the people that came before the war went off the derech because there were no boundaries and they weren't strong enough to be firm on their own. Plus life in europe was much different than america. He has reasons for everything he did. Now days is a different story. Maybe they can adjust some things in the system modified for year 2013. I don't know....

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 6:49 am

Another point is that unlike yeshivish/litvish/lakewood Bais Yaakovs and such, Satmar girls are in no way, shape, or form expected to provide for their families. Full stop. There is no concept such as kollel wives here, at all. When the children start coming, the husbands are expected to go out there and bring home the parnasah. Like I said, many women do work until 2-3 kids or so, but your typical Satmar yungerman is expected to start supporting his family by the time the first child is born.

The schools are not under any sort of 'pressure' to train the girls for higher education purposes - not even the Raizel Reit kind. There are actually many private or community courses and classes for men, bringing them up to par with trades and skills for this very reason. It is expected of them, not of the girls.

Of course, you will find some guys learning in kollel for an extended period, but these are the exceptions. They are either amazing and brilliant learners who have adequate community support to do so, or simply someone with rich inlaws who can afford it. Exceptions, not the rule.

Mama Bear

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 7:08 am

DrMom wrote:

[
Algebra is used everywhere in daily life.

Figuring out how much you need to earn to be able to have $x when you retire if your returement fund rate is y%.

How to scale up a recipe for 4 to feed 30.

etc.

Furthermore, not having any background in these fundamental math subjects means you are basically unable to pursue higher education in any science or engineering field without a lot of hard extra-curricular make-up work.

And this was in the girls' school -- the one that actually had limudei chol? What did the boys learn?

Were these schools accredited by NY State?

That's part of regular math - fractions, percentages, division - we learned that, only it wasnt called 'algebra'.