Spinoff I grew up Satmar amother enabled

Maya

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:34 am

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Green amother makes an excellent point. Having tainos on Bais Ruchel for not preparing you for college makes as much sense as having tainos on PS 111 for not preparing you for seminary.

So you are justifying what satmar is doing to hundreds of girls, right? In other words, you are saying that satmar has the right to take away the bechirah of a person. Congratulations! Why dont you send your own kids to satmar and we'll see how long they survive there.

Sarahd is right, and I am speaking as a Satmar Williamsburg graduate. Yes, Satmar has the right to decide what to teach their children. I don't agree with them, so I got the h*ll out of there. But as long as the education is decent - and it certainly is - you don't have a "right" to "demand" change from them.

Boys is another story, as we keep on saying here.

naturalmom5

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:35 am

amother wrote:

I'm not satmar and I didn't want to go to college. 12 years of school was more than enough for me.
Dh who did not learn any secular studies in school can read and do math way better than me. While I got a 94 on my math regent, when it comes to 'basic math' my dh is def. The winner. He learnt all his math from gemara and is excellent at it!! He has an excellent way of talking and he learnt it all from artscroll...
Now, dh and I both have excellent non college jobs. I run a great camp and have 50 employees.
Dh has a position that is most suited for him.
Both us do not feel deprived with no college.

Anon cuz of relevant information

That's awesome!!! Really.
But for every couple like you , there are 50 couples struggling, who didn't make it . My husband went to PS k-12, and eventually went to Brisk.
Should we send all our children to ritzy upscale public schools in Connecticut and give them Art Scroll Gamarras with laptops full of shiurim???

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:41 am

amother wrote:

Yes, I am sorry, I didnt realize that. as I said, this thread is getting really confusing to follow. Anyway, since you mention it, I will say that R Yoel hasnt been alive for 33 years and what worked when he was alive does not nec work today. He made all this rules when he came to america after the war when his followers where broken and traumatized from everything they had just gone through so they werent nec in their right minds to not follow everything he said. He should have gotten them into therapy so they can heal from the trauma they experienced but unfortunately he took advantage of these broken hearted people and started the satmar community. However, this generation and the generations after are not traumatized by any war and deserve better. Its time for change.

Thousands of Jews lived in America pre war. A very large percentage assimilated and very few were shomer Shabbos. If not for the strict rules of R' Yoel, and some other rabbonim, the same would happen today.

So what you are saying is that if satmar ceases to exist today, then there will no longer be any shomer shabbat people left in america?

Maya

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:45 am

amother wrote:

So what you are saying is that if satmar ceases to exist today, then there will no longer be any shomer shabbat people left in america?

Yes. That's what Satmar people are taught to believe, that there was no Yiddishkeit at all in American until the Rebbe came and established his community.

In the biography that was mentioned earlier in this thread, the author claims that there was not a single kosher mezuzah or Sefer Torah to be found in all of American before the Rebbe came. Everyone believes that. It's all propaganda to make sure we stick to this lifestyle.

Last edited by Maya on Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 11:58 am

amother wrote:

satmar has a right to decide that girls will all be sahm's even if girls are not obligated to get married or have children so by not educating the girls properly, satmar is essentially ensuring that the girls not have a right to decide what to do with their own lives. So we can say that the girls are conditioned to this lifestyle.

Yes, Satmar has the right to educate as they see fit. You have the right not to attend their institution.

And that's aside from the point that they most certainly DO provide a decent girls' education, and anyone who really wants to can readily decide what they would like to do with that. You cannot blame the school for the choices of one's parents, the influence of peer pressure, or your own actions once you have graduated.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

Kids dont have a choice of where they go to school. They are innocent victims in this whole scenario.

But let me ask you, what will happen if satmar decides to actually educate the girls properly, do you think that any of the girls will remain faithful to satmar?

Maya

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:11 pm

Quote:

Thanks. I wish I could do that but every step along the way reminds me that I grew up differently than anyone else and that I wasnt given the opportunity to develop in a healthy manner. And then I think about my nieces in the community and think of how smart they are and it pains me that they will also not be allowed to develop in a healthy manner, that they will not be allowed to pursue their interests outside of the role of being a wife and mother as determined by satmar. its sad, but hey if satmar says that they have to be a wife and mother then by golly they will be a wife and mother right? there is no room for change in that community is there?

It kills me too, about my family there, but since there's nothing I can do about it, I can't go around moping. I'm living my own life the way I want to live it. Stop dwelling on the past.

And just to clarify, the only thing I "justified" is the secular education in Satmar girls school, which, no matter how many times you will say it, is still not below par or inadequate.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:15 pm

Maya wrote:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Satmar not offering chemistry, physics, bio lab, music, art, literature, etc in a way that prepares you for college level learning or just in general, is not adequate or sufficient education but to each her own.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

Parents most certainly do. Which is why I said, blame the parents, the peer pressure, not the school. And would you define educate properly? Give me a specific example of what you would change.

You can't expect Satmar to turn into Bais Yaakov, if that's what you want to impart to your children. You want to raise your children in line with Satmar hashkafahs? Send them there. You want something else, send elsewhere. You have a child with different hashkafah than the parent? Well, that's a problem that comes up in every school and society, and is not unique or a fault of Satmar alone.

Maya

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:23 pm

amother wrote:

Maya wrote:

I don't know when you graduated, but I learned chemistry and physics.
And yes, to each their own.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 12:29 pm

amother wrote:

And again, Satmar does not HAVE to prepare you for college. If you are planning to attend college, you should be in a different school to begin with. If you decide to do so on your own, Satmar has more than sufficiently prepared you to catch up in these areas. College isn't meant to be a walk in the park for anyone. Sure you'll have to work harder than some, but it's perfectly doable and at some point, you've got to man up and stop faulting everyone else.

It's doable. I'm doing it, Maya's doing it, and I believe a number of other amothers on this thread have chimed in, too. Satmar's education IS adequate. Nothing to write home about, but most certainly sufficient, if you set your mind to it. Do you have tainos against them for not teaching gemara, too?

My kallah teacher didn't teach me enough about married life, my mother never let me touch the kitchen before I got married, my birthing classes didn't teach me enough about delivery, my high school teacher didn't do well at teaching trig, my boss didn't explain his presentation expectations well enough, my professor didn't define her requirements at all, my text didn't mention the example the department used in the final, my guidance counselor didn't prep me for internships....

Isramom8

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:38 pm

I am really surprised by some of the accusations about Satmar that are not at all limited to them! Many or most Israeli Chareidi schools, Chassidish or not, boys or girls, do not educate in a way that leads easily to going to secular college. In cheder, 8th grade (but practically, usually 7th) is the final year secular studies. This is deliberate. You may disagree, but the leaders of these groups have reasons for it.

This is the system my own kids are in! If they don't like it, they go to other programs afterwards or study on their own. But you know what, some of them like it and will not seek supplementary education. It is their choice, just as women on this thread have chosen college.

It's not "exactly the same". But it's ridiculous to insuinuate that this idea is unique to Satmar.

The Rosa Parks module is not what will work in communities like Satmar. There are other ways that are being discussed in the thread about effecting change in insular communities.

sequoia

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:39 pm

Not at all. I sympathize greatly.

However, people who have a set opinion would be less likely to listen to you, and thus to be partners for effecting change, if you express yourself negatively. I am already on your side, but if you want to change people's minds and hearts, it's best to stay away from anything that might be called bashing. People get defensive.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.--Martin Luther King, Jr.

oh, where would the world be today without Martin Luther King Jr, Rosa Parks, Gloria Steinman, Betty Friedan and others who have "bashed" the norms of society and fought for change? Changes, btw that you enjoy and benefit from today as well. If that is what needs to be done to satmar in order to see them change then that is what will be done. In the name of Martin Luther King-- I HAVE A DREAM and I will not allow anyone to bully me into silence. There will be change in the satmar community even if it will take years to incorporate said changes.

Exactly what I"m telling you. Rise above Satmar. Move on.

No one is bullying you into anything. Do you as you wish, say as you wish, fight as you wish. I come from the same place you do, and I'm doing exactly that.

But the Satmar community doesn't need to be 'rescued'. They have no desire to sit in front of the bus, so to speak, nor to 'desgregrate' themselves and join the BY movement. Whoever does have that desire, should do so themselves, as apparently you, me, and others on this thread have. You don't revamp an entire system because a minute percentage disagrees with it. Revolutions have to start from within - when the people become desperate. Every community, every society, every lifestyle has its dissidents and people that change and leave for other places. And that's what we are - admit it. So we left, we changed, but to make the rest of the perfectly satisfied population change along with our mindsets, is not a reasonable nor feasible thing to accomplish.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:41 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

You're right. The Sarah Schnerir module is a better example of how one can come from an insular community and change the entire community forever. thanks.

Mama Bear

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:42 pm

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Green amother makes an excellent point. Having tainos on Bais Ruchel for not preparing you for college makes as much sense as having tainos on PS 111 for not preparing you for seminary.

1. Every school has a right to decide their level of curriculum. the choice to send to that school or not is yours.
2. Really, is this the only place satmar takes away their followers' "bechira"?

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:46 pm

I must admit, most people would get a kick out of me posting on this thread like this. I am usually the first person to react against Satmar, to complain, to argue, to debate about many of their ridiculous restrictions and harsh views, in general. But in this case, I feel that this amother is incorrect with her conclusions. While the education we both received may not have been enough for her to feel comfortable with her college experience, it does not mean that the Satmar curriculum and community needs to be drastically revamped. It was OK. It could've been better, but it was decent. It is unfair to malign them for not providing us with anything less than the creme de la creme, and even more so, by entirely different standards than the Satmar crowd adheres to.

amother

Thu, Apr 25 2013, 1:49 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Let it be known that green amother of this thread is my hero. A true voice of reason if I ever saw one. I wish I would know your true identity because I admire your level headedness and honesty.

she is the voice of reason because she is expressing your sentiments? That doesnt automatically mean that she is being reasonable but I wouldnt expect you to understand that.