Which would upset you more?...Lesbianism or Stealing?

Raisin

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 12:41 pm

Quote:

I wouldn't want to knowingly or unknowingly marry someone who's gay.

No would I. but I am sure there are some women out there who perhaps would be happy to be married to a man who did not want to be intimate with them. Maybe there are women who would like to have children but basically a platonic relationship with their husband.

(ok, I guess they would have to sleep together to get pregnant.)

amother

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 12:56 pm

only1 wrote:

There are plenty of people in that same exact situation who somehow find a way to make do without stealing. Sorry thats a cop-out.

How many married kids do you have, that lived the Kollel lifestyle and had to make do with low paying jobs to survive, when their time was up? Come back and tell us what you think when you have a couple more.

They're victims of the system. (they're told in school- "You can do it if you really want to.....")

mimsy7420

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

only1 wrote:

There are plenty of people in that same exact situation who somehow find a way to make do without stealing. Sorry thats a cop-out.

You are right they are victims of a very flawed system. But I know people in that situation who were preached the song of kollel and then when it came time to get a job, no one was beating down their door! And they still didn't STEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

amother

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 1:02 pm

only1 wrote:

They have either

1-rich parents/inlaws

2-Gmachs with faith and patience- they take from one Gmach to pay another!

It's sad how a Mitzvah can lead to an Aveiroh.

mimsy7420

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 1:07 pm

amother wrote:

only1 wrote:

They have either

1-rich parents/inlaws

2-Gmachs with faith and patience- they take from one Gmach to pay another!

It's sad how a Mitzvah can lead to an Aveiroh.

Excuses, excuses.
I am hesitant to make this comparison, but are the black teenagers who live in the projects and grow up surrounded with violence and theft, excused to become thieves and murderers themselves? What about all the good ones who came out of there? Why didn't they grow up to steal and how did they make something of themselves??

Why should kollel couples who come out of a very flawed system also (IMO Smile

) and can't seem to make their way in the world after leaving it allowed to steal??

greenfire

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 3:44 pm

only1 has certainly got a lot of points way above in regard to the gay and lesbian relations ...
amother you are way off ... telling people to get married anyway ... that is a lie and living a lie and causing undue hardship and heartache to marry someone in such a manner ...

Ruchel

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 4:07 pm

Maybe halachically lesbianism is not worse, I don't know.

But lesbianism definitely messes up the person's life more than stealing... Stealing means problems, homos-xuality means no happy marital life, or worse no marriage and no children C'V. The choice is easy for me, I want grandchildren.

Ruchel

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 4:13 pm

greenfire wrote:

amother wrote:

Um, I never said they choose to be gay. I said they choose the lifestyle. Someone can be gay, but choose to live a Torah lifestyle with marriage, kids, etc...

Yeah a whole lot of fun especially for the wife when they are intimate NOT!!! Yes in the name of Torah let us make our wives suffer and perhaps our children ... so that one can be in denial that there is no such thing as a gay frum person ... NOT!!!

It's a huge problem. They should marry lesbians so the wife doesn't want to be loved by the husband, and have IVF if they can't be with a woman. After all they have to have children, so why make a hetero woman suffer...I don't think a gay man with a hetero woman is possible on the long run.

amother

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 10:25 pm

Ruchel wrote:

so why make a hetero woman suffer...I don't think a gay man with a hetero woman is possible on the long run.

I am good friends with a woman who is (quietly) bi-s-xual. She is married with a child. I think her tendancies are more to the lesbian side than the hetero. But she tries her best.

I just have to say that I wouldn't pity the poor hetero man with a lesbian woman too much. From what I can tell, most men are happy to stick it anywhere warm and don't really give a hoot about what the womans "tendancies" are!
It works for my friend.
It can work.

JRKmommy

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 10:26 pm

FWIW, I do know several lesbians with children.

Re a "marriage" between a gay man and lesbian: Theoretically, some may be able to deal with such an arrangement. However, physical attraction is usually one of the elements that acts as a "glue" in a marital relationship. I'd be wondering how such an arrangement would work in the long term, with both partners possibly being frustrated, and living closely together without the "glue" that most other couples have. If the couple didn't manage to have a lasting, happy relationship, the children would suffer.

*************************************************************

Re stealing: Are we not taught that a parent who fails to teach their son a trade, teaches him to steal?

I think it's a bit of a cop out for parents to blame just the schools for children who can't support themselves. Parents choose the school.

I've said it before - but really, what is the purpose of calling yourself frum if your entire lifestyle is based upon committing a serious aveira? Why study Torah if you plan to violate a clear Torah commandment in order to do so? I don't see frum people posting that they'd love to eat glatt kosher, but non-kosher meat is cheaper and they need to feed their kids. I don't see them posting that they'd love to keep Shabbos, but they have to work to pay for things.

amother

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 11:20 pm

greenfire wrote:

greenfire, you obviously did not read what I wrote. I never said there should be any lying. If a gay man marries a lesb woman, obviously there would be an openness about their s-xuality. No one is forcing them, if they can't do it stay single. But it is admirable to try to live a Torah life. Again, is a thief suppressing his stealing urges living a lie?

amother

Tue, Mar 27 2007, 11:27 pm

To respond to the original post:
OY, men zull nisht gepreevt veerin.
We do all envision a certain future for our children, and when it turns out that those hopes and dreams are shattered it is a loss to be grieved. Whether it be ssa or stealing. I think in both cases, the person engaging in either activity is hurting.
Personally I feel sadness for the losses and hurts these people have suffered, for other than pain and suffering how else does one account for such acting out.
Again, may we never be tested.

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 2:26 am

I'm not sure why there should be a debate about this...

Thou shalt not steal is one of the big 10!!!!

Whereas lesbianism is an issur d'rabanan, has a punishment of lashes I believe and is not the same as male homosexuality.

mimivan

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 2:38 am

But the problem is that the gays make a big lifestyle thing about it. They're proud of it. At least a thief tries to hide, which shows he has some conscience. I would be as upset about a child being a theif as being gay (G-d forbid on both counts) if he went to Thief Pride parades, told other people that stealing is cool and should be tolerated and claim that robbing is a legitimate lifestyle choice.

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 2:49 am

mimivan wrote:

First of all, the question was lesbians, not gay men.

Second of all, how is knowing something is wrong, but doing it any way and being two-faced about it BETTER than knowing something is wrong, doing it any way and not caring what others think?

Most of the gay and lesbian men and women I know don't 'make a big lifestyle thing about it'. No more so than people celebrating Puerto Rico Day or Israeli Day or any number of parades that go through Manhattan.

sarahd

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 3:33 am

Kmelion wrote:

The Lo Signov in the 10 Dibros refers to kidnapping. Maybe we can change the poll to which would upset you more - discovering that your child is a kidnapper or a lesbian. Rolling Eyes

BeershevaBubby

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 3:53 am

sarahd wrote:

The Lo Signov in the 10 Dibros refers to kidnapping. Maybe we can change the poll to which would upset you more - discovering that your child is a kidnapper or a lesbian. :roll:

Actually, according to Rashi (and many others), while Lo Tignov AT THE END refers to kidnapping, to protect oneself from snatching people, one must first stop himself from petty theft so that he will never come to stealing greater objects.

And rolling your eyes is really unbecoming of an Admin Assistant.

sarahd

Wed, Mar 28 2007, 4:51 am

Admin Assts are allowed to do whatever they want, as long as the boss doesn't see them. We are so low on the totem pole that no one expects anything much from us. Twisted Evil

Your quote from Rashi is interesting, but doesn't change the fact that lo signov in the 10 dibros means kidnapping. Yes, the roots of kidnapping might lie in the simple swipe, but pocket-picking is not the big no-no.