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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Purple

Mon, Jun 18 2018, 9:45 pm

amother wrote:

What if I change the question slightly

"why should I give my hard earned cash to help a troublesome person like that?"

Is someone holding a gun to your head, saying you have to?

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 18 2018, 9:57 pm

amother wrote:

"don't pull the Hitler card. It has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about autistic children who cause so many problems in the classroom and many do terrible things as adults. At the very least they will always be sponging off society, never quite able to fit in or contribute."

Sad

I'm not sure what that person's argument is. This is exactly what Hitler said about the Jews - that they cause all the world's problems, always sponging off society, etc. - almost those exact words.

But if you can't pull the Hitler card, and the sanctity of life card is not working either, let's try this -

Who gets to decide who will be the ones "terminated"? And what will be the criteria? Because it's a slippery slope, you know. One minute it's only the very, very bottom of the pile, those that are impossible to contribute, then it slowly creeps up... and before you know it, half the population is set to be "terminated". And because once people start playing G-d - who knows where it will end...

Look what happened to Robespierre during the French Revolution... Come to think of it, I think this person should brush up on his/her history. Especially the topic of "ethnic cleansing".

amother

Purple

Mon, Jun 18 2018, 10:17 pm

I was taught Hitler wasn't only into exterminating Jews. He was into exterminating anyone who didn't fit his mold. Jews were not the only group he targeted. I'm sorry if it's been taught differently in local schools.
Gays, autistics, disabled individuals were equally targeted and exterminated. Whether they were Jewish or not.

Teomima

Mon, Jun 18 2018, 11:58 pm

The initial premise is incorrect, therefore the entire argument is invalid.

My dh has several mental illnesses. Yes there were periods he couldn't contribute to society, and he received disability. But currently he is stable, works very hard in his extremely challenging career, pays his taxes, supports his family, and is by every account a fully functioning, contributing member of society.

DrMom

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:05 am

It is hard for me to believe that someone in Western society thinks this way.

Is this a hypothetical position that you need to refute for a homework assignment?

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:11 am

DrMom wrote:

Is this a hypothetical position that you need to refute for a homework assignment?

No. All of these answers are helping a lot. Thank you.

creditcards

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:48 am

amother wrote:

What if I change the question slightly

"why should I give my hard earned cash to help a troublesome person like that?"

First you got to acknowledge that it's not your hard earned cash. It's not even yours. Hashem gave it to you and let's you use part of it for yourself and expects you to use part of it to help the disadvantaged. If you will not give them their share hashem will give you less. Your hard work is just your hishtadlis and really does not affect how much you will earn...

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:50 am

creditcards wrote:

This is good. But what if they are not religious?

creditcards

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:52 am

amother wrote:

"why is it I crazy? No one wants them. They are always causing problems. Why not just get rid of them?"

Sad

Whom does the world belong too? What do you mean nobody wants them? Hashem wants them. He made the world. Be happy he lets you be alive in it. Why do Me or you have a bigger right to hashems world than the disabled. Why shouldn't they get rid of us. Because they are not so strong? Is that the way it works? Whoever is stronger has a right to kill the weeker?

creditcards

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:56 am

amother wrote:

This is good. But what if they are not religious?

Do you know that there is a whole elite group in the government that believe they should be boss of the world and kill everyone else. ?

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 1:00 am

I'm sorry if this thread has upset people.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 1:49 am

amother wrote:

Why? because he/she was created b'tzelem Elokim.
he/she will bring out stregnths in you that you didn't know existed.
he/she will bring out a love from your heart that you've never experienced.
he/she will Not be a burden. but a labor of love & an endless opportunity for 24/7 built in chesed.
he/she will teach you to appreciate even the small things in life.
he/she will teach you not to take anything for granted. not even the ability to close your mouth.
he/she will give you such a warm hug, it will melt your heart.

Be honest, would you REALLY want this to be YOUR entire purpose?
I don't think so.

Not OP, no idea where she is coming from...but I have the same debate in my head.
Not necessarily about killing such people, but rather why Hashem created them. (I mean once they're alive, I guess it's what God wanted and I have no right to kill his creations).

Iymnok

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 2:06 am

Are yoU talking things like ASD or ADHD?
People with those conditions can be a drain on society, but when they rein in and use the benefits that their condition gives them, they are way more successful than any "normal" member of society.
There is a unit of the IDF specifically for ASD. They have the abilities to do jobs in that area better than anyone else. Not only super high functioning either.
A person with a physical disability like blindness or deafness, compensates with their other senses. Those can be, and often are, channeled very productively.

Society really has much more to gain from these people over your average Joe.

sped

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 2:18 am

amother wrote:

This is the real reason. Hashem gives neshamos and life, only He decides life's worth and only He takes it away. The rest of this list is for us, but doesn't answer the question.

Raisin

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 5:32 am

If you would take this position to its extreme, you would kill all retirees. (Unless they spend time looking after grandchildren or volunteering.)

imasinger

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 5:52 am

Iymnok wrote:

This sounds like where OP is coming from.

My friend's kid with severe ADHD got kicked out of the big dayschool because he occasionally got out of control in the classroom, and the school had a "zero tolerance policy" for aggressive and disruptive behavior. (Translation, rather than work on helping the child, they suspended him a few times, then expelled him.) It was such a shame, because the school was so good at helping kids with academic problems, but couldn't be bothered to spend the time/money to help kids with behavior and attention issues. And our local public schools do an excellent job working with this population, so it CAN be done.

As a result, this kid has much less connection to yiddishkeit than if they had been willing to invest what it took to work with him. He is now completing his undergraduate degree, and I am confident that he will contribute positively to society. He doesn't hit like he used to at age 12, either.

OP, if what you're doing is trying to come up with arguments to get a school to work with a challenged child, I'm not sure I'd suggest focusing on the big picture argument of why systems should be created to help all in this position.

My suggestion would be to start smaller, and focus on a few measures that they might be willing to try. Plan a logical step that sounds reasonable, and that a child has a chance to master, with support. Focus the argument there alone.

My kid goes to a school where the director had routinely told other parents they "didn't have the training", to help a child with HFA, and sent them away after any disruption. My DS almost got kicked out of in first grade, after a few incidents. But we persuaded the director to let him stay, and pushed to get the support he needed. B"H, she now says, "it's wonderful, he's doing so beautifully."

And although we had only focused on making things work for our own DS, the result of his success is that she is much more willing to accept others with the diagnosis, and no longer believes that the school "just can't" get such situations to work. She was willing to hire special education staff who could help.

An example of success was worth more than all the logical arguments in the world.

Last edited by imasinger on Tue, Jun 19 2018, 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total

DrMom

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 6:10 am

The whole argument is ridiculous.

Only productive people deserve to live? What if I was a pianist crossing the street and I got hit by a car and lost an arm? Is it worth it to scrape my body off the pavement, or should society decide to leave me there as roadkill because I am no longer competent at my profession?

What if I am a productive person who got downsized and am now unemployed? Do I get the gas chamber?

How and to whom can I prove I am productive? Who gets to decide? What metrics do we use to define "productivity?" Is a SAHM "productive" if she is not pulling in a salary? What about a full-time philosophy (or Torah) student?

What if one political party decides that all career politicians associated with the opposing party are defined as "unproductive?" Can they use the State to kill them?

Aside from the appalling moral considerations, there is no way to define a "productive" member of society without being arbitrary. Does your acquaintance think we kill people based on arbitrary criteria?

zgp

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 6:37 am

I have a pathological issue with "playing G-d". I think that most of us understand that whilst we may criticize governments, sometimes our leaders have inside information that we don't have and their decisions reflect this.

Why can't we understand that G-d has inside information and His decisions reflect this?
You don't have to be religious to understand that whoever created the world presumably knew what He was doing.

(For those who believe in evolution and the big bang, you have an issue because you could possibly say that this person was an unwanted biproduct somewhere along the line.)

and for those who are being kind of selfish "why should I support this person?", I would say to you "what about someone who becomes ill with cancer and will never fully recover?" Who would you like to look after you if you got stuck (lo aleinu)? Terminating potential for life is like terminating life itself. Until a person has lived his life, we can never tell what he will achieve. Sometimes the people who seem to be on their way to the top fall down and those with issues overachieve. You can never tell. Killing potential is a horrific responsibility.

amother

White

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 8:36 am

Raisin wrote:

If you would take this position to its extreme, you would kill all retirees. (Unless they spend time looking after grandchildren or volunteering.)

Playing Devil's advocate, a person could say that a retiree worked and set money aside for himself, so in his retirement he is using his own money or credit. Whereas a person who never worked is purely leaching off of society.

I think from an athiest point of view it makes sense to "unplug"/terminate comatose patients, etc. All the reasons I can think of not to are religious reasons.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:12 am

amother wrote:

Let me tell you some thoughts I had on dementia, and maybe they'll be useful springboards for other conditions.
I don't want to romanticize sicknesses like cancer, but cancer patients can have some transcendental moments of connection to G-d, inspire others, and, of course, be productive in the secular sense (but in a Jewish way) till the end. Contrast that to dementia. The demented person, particularly as it goes on, will not have fully aware transcendental moments like the cancer patient. No "I appreciate I have been given a nisayon/it should be a kapara/life is still good as long as I can connect to G-d and my inner G-dliness" etc.

And yet, having seen it pretty close, there are moments of beauty. As a person loses so many parts of himself, what's left is his essence. True, dementia patients often experience personality changes, may hit, yell, etc. as they lose the ability to verbalize or retrieve better reactions. But still, when you see the core, it's pretty amazing. I'd often wondered why Hashem would want to keep people in this world when they couldn't contribute the way they had been, like a talmid chochom whose Torah would light up the world. But it's pretty amazing when you see that same talmid chochom daven, when you can say any pasuk, any Rashi and he will be able to finish it, because it's such a part of him.

When you have a woman whose lost her short term memory, but whose essence is so delightful that she is perpetually grateful and charming.

This is just a small part of my observations. What an education on wo/man's potential.
From a frum point, like children with severe handicaps, or worse, whose (possibly brief) sojourn in this world is for us. To give, to contemplate, to grow. Whose every moment must be kaparah for their neshama because bechira isn't relevant to them.

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