Please help me argue an important point

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:15 am

chicco wrote:

1. The premise that such individuals drain more than they offer is false.

2. Who are we to decide who is providing/draining?

3. What about all of the "healthy" people who contribute absolutely nothing to society?

4. Just because someone is disabled in one area, doesn't make him or her worthless.

5. G-d puts everyone here for a reason. What right do we have to deem someone less than? Yes, I known I said that one already, but I feel it is worth repeating.

6. Honeslty, someone with the attitude you are describing is someone that society could do without, IMNSHO.

But that would you say about someone who clearly is only taking? There's a severely disabled teenage girl in my area who can't talk or communicate. She is wheelchair bound and sits there expressionless 24 hours a day. To be honest, she is a tremendous burden on her family and her medical needs must be hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. What would you say about this girl? How does her life have value?

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:19 am

Imasinger - ty for sharing about your child. that's really beautiful.

I actually think about stuff like this a lot these days as we are in the midst of evals to figure out my son's developmental delays. Not in terms of ending a life. But more in terms of making me think about how we define life values, contributions to society, etc.

My one comment would be this: When my mother was dying in the hospital, I just wanted another day. She wasn't functioning or being productive to general society. But when she saw me, she smiled. She asked about the kids. So even tho she was dying, those days that she lived meant so much. And I wanted just one more day. Because her value was solely to me, and not to hospital personnel, does that make it less? I don't think so

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:21 am

Teomima wrote:

The initial premise is incorrect, therefore the entire argument is invalid.

My dh has several mental illnesses. Yes there were periods he couldn't contribute to society, and he received disability. But currently he is stable, works very hard in his extremely challenging career, pays his taxes, supports his family, and is by every account a fully functioning, contributing member of society.

The discussion doesn't include people like your husband who you describe as someone who can be stable and contribute. What about people that are disabled to an extent that they will never contribute?

heidi

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:30 am

amother wrote:

This.
You could posit that her purpose in life is to give other people chessed opportunities. But it seems so sad.
At my job I often see severely disabled children. Their parents have no life outside work and caring for them. There was just a 12 year old hospitalized for 2 months. With round the clock family members or volunteers watching her. She can't walk, talk, eat. She can't even smile. I'm not saying she should be killed. But seriously, what kind of life is that for her? And her family? G-d forgive me for saying this but wouldn't it have been better if she had never been born?

chicco

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

How can I possibly judge what her value is? It is so interesting how we hear all of the time how we shouldn't judge people, but when it comes to someone's ultimate value- their life, and we feel like we have a say. If G-d sees it fit for someone to live and exist, that by definition is a proof to that person's value. G-d decides when one is no longer contributing.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:36 am

This is heartbreaking.

Earlier, someone made a list that included Helen Keller.

At the time, current medical thinking and knowledge put her in that category, too.

There's an awful lot that we don't know, and new advances being made all the time. Severely autistic kids, or those with CP, being given a voice through eye motion. Suddenly, the "vegetable", the "hopeless case" becomes a person.

I'm glad I believe these matters are in Hashem's hands, and our obligation is to try our best to help.

I've come across too many stories of women being pressured by doctors to abort, because the tests showed abnormality. Many of those kids have succeeded beyond all expectation.

PurpleandGold

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:50 am

In my experience, people who ask these sorts of questions are covering up extreme insecurity and feelings of worthlessness within themselves. Someone who loves himself simply doesn't wonder why we don't terminate people with mental or physical illness. He just sees need and wants to help if he can. So the logical debate can rage on, but perhaps the real counter argument should be: "Are you afraid you would not be worthy of life and love if you couldn't contribute enough? Because you mean so much to me, regardless of what you can contribute, I would always want you in my life..."

amother

Periwinkle

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:51 am

imasinger wrote:

This sounds like where OP is coming from.

My friend's kid with severe ADHD got kicked out of the big dayschool because he occasionally got out of control in the classroom, and the school had a "zero tolerance policy" for aggressive and disruptive behavior. (Translation, rather than work on helping the child, they suspended him a few times, then expelled him.) It was such a shame, because the school was so good at helping kids with academic problems, but couldn't be bothered to spend the time/money to help kids with behavior and attention issues. And our local public schools do an excellent job working with this population, so it CAN be done.
ments in the world.

[u]

I'm sure this is the entire story and if we would ask the school, they would also agree that this child only "occasionally" got out of hand in the classroom but was thrown to the streets anyway. Always be weary of hearing disputes from only one side. 99% of the time you did not hear the whole story. Kind of like on shabbos when my 7 year old son said his sister smacked him. Why? For no reason! Maybe it's true, but then again, maybe not.

sushilover

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 9:59 am

It is difficult to argue about human rights on purely secular terms, but I'll give it a shot.

This discussion reminds me of The Giver- a book I read in elementary school about a 'utopian' society who 'releases' any inconvenient or unproductive member.

Ask the person you arguing with-
Do you want to live in a world where only the perfect can be allowed to live or be supported?
Do you want to live in a world where human life is not sacrosanct?

(To those asking if such a worldview actually exists, look up Peter Singer, Professor of Bioethics at Princeton. He says that personhood should only be granted to those that can communicate in some way. This means that to him, an intelligent dog is superior to a brain damaged infant and infanticide is a moral option in many cases. )

amother

Purple

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:06 am

When my child's doctors told me to institutionalize him, I said no. Sure he was a drain on me financially, physically, emotionally, etc. The doctors said he had no potential and his life would be completely non-productive.

They were misguided, as doctors often are.

At 20 yrs old he's thriving. You'd not believe this is the child who was once given up for institutionalized living.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

Be honest, would you REALLY want this to be YOUR entire purpose?
I don't think so.

Not OP, no idea where she is coming from...but I have the same debate in my head.
Not necessarily about killing such people, but rather why Hashem created them. (I mean once they're alive, I guess it's what God wanted and I have no right to kill his creations).

Do I know what tikkun haolem I need to do?
thanks for puncturing my heart with your comment.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:01 am

amother wrote:

[u]
I'm sure this is the entire story and if we would ask the school, they would also agree that this child only "occasionally" got out of hand in the classroom but was thrown to the streets anyway. Always be weary of hearing disputes from only one side. 99% of the time you did not hear the whole story. Kind of like on shabbos when my 7 year old son said his sister smacked him. Why? For no reason! Maybe it's true, but then again, maybe not.

You are correct that these stories often have two sides. It so happens that a) if you know my posts at all, I'm extremely fair minded. This particular family is very committed, intelligent, and more than willing to work with anyone that would give them a chance. And that I taught in the school, and two of my family went there K-12, so I was very aware of the school culture, strengths, and weaknesses.

And, more important, b) I think mechanchim across the board would agree that in the past 15 years since this happened, there have been light years of progress in understanding and teaching children with behavior issues. And that there still is much more to be learned, for many schools, both religious and public. It has been shown repeatedly that punishment is largely NOT the most effective way to handle a child with a behavioral disorder diagnosis. They need behavioral help and social skills, and more. I am fortunate to live in a town with progressive ideas in this regard, and have been able to bring public school expertise on to our family's team. But I see plenty of other situations where people are not so blessed.

It takes a willingness to learn what actually works and what doesn't, rather than maintaining a rigid system and a self righteous attitude.

OP, sorry for the tangent.

tryinghard

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:09 am

amother wrote:

The discussion doesn't include people like your husband who you describe as someone who can be stable and contribute. What about people that are disabled to an extent that they will never contribute?

Many of the exceptional people mentioned above were expected to fit into this category - particularly Temple Grandin and Helen Keller. How can we decide that someone "will never contribute"?

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:13 am

PurpleandGold wrote:

Not covering it up, I know it's there.
The problem is I can't deal with it so then I can't change my perspective so then I will hate hate hate autistic kids and disabled people forever.

I hate that I do this, but I can't not.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:14 am

chicco wrote:

This resonated with me. Thank you.

ProudMommie

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

Why? because he/she was created b'tzelem Elokim.
he/she will bring out stregnths in you that you didn't know existed.
he/she will bring out a love from your heart that you've never experienced.
he/she will Not be a burden. but a labor of love & an endless opportunity for 24/7 built in chesed.
he/she will teach you to appreciate even the small things in life.
he/she will teach you not to take anything for granted. not even the ability to close your mouth.
he/she will give you such a warm hug, it will melt your heart.

amazing... brought tears to my eyes.. so true. I can't believe that we even have this thread. I feel like I am a dreaming (a nightmare).

ProudMommie

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:16 pm

A story about disability... I don't know if Down's syndrome children are called "disabled" but I guess they would be called..."special needs" so it may apply here. Anyway, for sure they are the most special people on earth and for some reason I had never known one closely... probably because I am pretty anti-social.. So.. my son is a very super friendly loving boy who deals with many rough people in his life especially because of the culture where we live... and he has been bullied a lot, etc.. He is not super shy or super sensitive, and strong k'ah.. he is just a good boy who does not really like to hurt other people or even understands the need for being mean to someone...(I have to swallow my tears as I write this) So recently he had to go to a new school here in E"Y (long story) and the kids were kind of mean and unaccepting to him because he was not exactly like them (I don't want to give details and bash any particular group).. THAT is NOT the point though.. just giving a context.. Anyway, he was so discouraged and feeling down about it ... it happened that one day we went to a local matnas for some games and activities out of the sun and there was a down syndrome boy there that my son made a connection with. When most people were kind of annoyed that this small child was in their way, my son in contrast was patient and tolerant with him.. Anyway, at some point we were waiting outside for the bus together and this little DS boy saw my son, well... he almost ran to him and unabashedly hugged him really hard and just held him like that for a long time. My son was a bit shocked but did not pull away.. just stood there smiling.. It was such a moment.. when time stood still.. I felt ashamed and so small...This little boy was so much greater than me.... Total unconditional positive regard and just love for my son because he was another human being..... It was stunning for me to see. This little boy who was not like the rest of us so called "normal" people was able to give my son unconditional love that he so much needed at that time.

heidi

Tue, Jun 19 2018, 12:53 pm

PurpleandGold wrote:

I don't agree at all.
I see these kids and my heart breaks for them. That being schlepped around in a wheelchair is their lot in life. Where is the joy for them? They will never know the simple pleasure of. . . anything.
And that breaks my heart.