Trump blames Synagogue shooting on lack of security

WhatFor

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:04 pm

It seems that some posters might have construed what I wrote literally, so as a point of clarification, I don't actually think that Jews should have to accompany themselves with a small militia every time they want to gather to daven. I thought it looked as absurd in writing as it sounded in my head, but I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

We give a state (in this case the US) the right to govern us in exchange for their protection of our shared values and our lives. If the state cannot protect its inhabitants' shared values or lives, it is failing and it needs to take action. Some states actually step in by providing police protection around chagim, as I believe was done in Pittsburgh. I believe in this case DHS also provided security training/ consultation to Tree of Life and they created emergency exits as a result, which helped save lives in this case.

Evidently, it wasn't enough. Too many lives were lost and something needs to be changed to ensure that this doesn't happen again. And no branch is government should be saying that the onus should be on individual groups to step up and protect themselves more from terrorists. That's actually their job. That's one of the things we elect them to do.

Yes, amongst ourselves we can acknowledge that throughout history we are unable to rely on governments to protect us and we must take security measures. But it is the definition of chutzpah for the executive branch to baldly state that if the synagogue had better security this whole thing could have been prevented. Maybe if the government were better at keeping weapons out of the hands of terrorists this whole thing could have been prevented.

southernbubby

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:13 pm

Some shuls have people who are concealed carry, even on Shabbos. Where I daven, there are usually men who come armed on Shabbos and I know of a shul in Pittsburgh where several are armed and most likely there is more than one shul like that.

That is probably the solution; training shul members in how to use firearms and making sure that they are armed and have gun permits.

Gun control laws may reduce guns in one hundred years but people like this evil murderer will still have guns no matter how illegal they become.

Time for some brave folks to step up to the plate and be ready to fight.

Even then, a small handgun won't stop a high velocity rifle but it is worth a try.

Jeanette

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:21 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Four policemen were injured. Four. How many security guards should the shul have had?

And we dont know when and where the next crazed gunman will strike. How many security guards can we put in EVERY public place? They can't be everywhere all the time. Do you want to go through a metal detector to get into shul?

Maybe we can work on restricting access to heavy weapons instead.

southernbubby

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:39 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Yes but you probably need both methods; gun control and good guys with guns because there are already so many high velocity rifles in circulation. There are crazed gunmen like this guy but in the case of one church shooting, the gunman was angry at someone in a domestic case. A police officer that I once met in a shul (he was there to be honored) said that most common is someone who has a score to settle with someone in the house of worship; often a family dispute.

Is there a guarantee that a good guy with a gun could stop a shooter who is armed to the teeth? Maybe not, but at least people can die trying.

Jeanette

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:43 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Yeah, that's really reassuring.

No, it does not need to take many decades to get dangerous weapons out of circulation

The reason people are upset by his comments are because it is a common argument to blame Jews for not standing up to the Nazis. They went "like sheep to slaughter." I guess it helps non jews mitigate their own guilt and complicity.

southernbubby

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:48 pm

Jeanette wrote:

I personally feel more secure that there are some armed men in our shul, on Shabbos. I don't know how the government would get the approximately 300 million guns in America out of circulation, even if they closed down every gun shop on the planet. I am not sure how long that would take. I have no problem with every gun shop being closed but then what are we going to do about all of those people who will find a way to hold on to their guns? People like that evil maniac are not going to surrender them without a battle.

Also, my grandchildren all know that my biggest heroes were the Bielsky brothers who led the partisans during the Holocaust.

Jeanette

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:51 pm

southernbubby wrote:

And nobody ever asked that all guns be removed from circulation. Straw man.

Automatic rifles with high capacity magazines. No reason any private Citizen needs to own one.

It took the combined power of the US, Great Britain and Russia to stop the Nazis, but sure, the Jews should have done more to fight back.

southernbubby

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:55 pm

Jeanette wrote:

And nobody ever asked that all guns be removed from circulation. Straw man.

Automatic rifles with high capacity magazines. No reason any private Citizen needs to own one.

So how is law enforcement going to find everyone who already owns one. If they stop selling them tomorrow, how many are already in existence? Are police going to research records of sales of those weapons and search those homes for those weapons?

Yes, outlaw them and stop selling them but they will still be a menace for a long time to come and people have to try to protect themselves meanwhile.

seekingquietude

Sat, Oct 27 2018, 11:56 pm

I want to cry because anyone here wants to start pointing fingers at humans for this. We will only merit further attacks with this attitude. You are all talking as if any number of armed guards, as if the most ardently friendly president, could possibly move a blade of grass without Hashem's permission.

Please, please pray tehillim instead of finding some minute technicality to use to critique your chosen political opponent. At such a time!

Fox

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 12:18 am

Amarante wrote:

I wonder if this murderer considered himself one of the good guys on that side after Trump absolved the neo-Nazis from their evil.

I wonder if Republicans really think violent, unhinged bigots should be able to buy weapons of war. I wonder how anyone can go to the polls and votes for these people who do nothing but make the country more unsafe and hate-filled.

Trump is already blaming the congregation for not having more security. It's all lies, blame, denigration with him. Everyone who supports Trump, and by extension the radical right that he has so loudly championed, bears responsibility for these daily acts of hateful, extreme violence. Shame on you all.

Bowers (the shooter) took to Gab, a social network that bills itself as a being dedicated to free speech and which is increasingly popular among alt-right activists and white nationalists. After opening an account on it in January, he had shared a stream of anti-Jewish slurs and conspiracy theories. It was on Gab where he found a like-minded community, reposting messages from Nazi supporters.

“Jews are the children of Satan,” read Mr. Bowers’s biography

Gab has grown increasingly popular among those whose views are unwelcome on other services. It grew out of claims of anti-conservative bias by Facebook and Twitter and is best known for its limited user guidelines.

Milo Yiannopoulos was an early adapter of the Gab site - I wonder if Fox is still one of his fan girls as she defended him vociferously when his pedophiliac remarks became public as just a joke.

WORDS HAVE MEANING AND CONSEQUENCES.

Seriously? We can't put aside the hate for even a day? You are misinformed about both Gab and Milo.

Bowers didn't survey the congregants this morning as to their political beliefs or where they stand on freedom of speech before he started shooting. He killed them because they were Jews -- nothing more and nothing less.

Mevater

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 12:37 am

seekingquietude wrote:

Similarly, Israel has faith in G-d and an amazing army. "Ain Somchin Al Hanes".

sarahmalka

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 1:34 am

Fox wrote:

Same thoughts here as on the other thread:

We need to all stand down. This was not a political crime. It was a manifestation of Eisav soneh Yaakov, a hatred that every ideology and political system can be twisted to embrace -- and most have at one time or another. Hatred of Jews finds sympathetic corners everywhere, and no place is ever immune.

YES. 100% Fox.

I live in Pgh. Was on lockdown in shul today. Am reeling from the events and even more-so right now from seeing how all over Facebook my friends both local and all over the USA are using these murders as a platform from which to spout their political ideology. I came on imamother tonight (this morning- gaaahh 1:30AM!) because I can't sleep and my heart keeps skipping around in my chest, and I needed a respite from the pro-gun/anti-gun, pro-Trump/anti-Trump vitriol showing up in my Facebook feed. So I'm just going to say 'right on' to Fox because her comment speaks truth to me about what happened here and how it fits into the network of anti-Semitic killings all over the world. It's not a right-wing/left-wing issue, it's not even a gun issue, it's a Jewish issue.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 2:16 am

Mevater wrote:

Trump says Synagogues need armed guards.

Ridiculous! Are Synagogues the only places where Jews congregate?

Im not sure what the real solution of protecting Jews against Nazi terror is, but having armed guards at every Synagogue isnt it.

I did not read all of the replies, justthe OP, but are you kidding? I dont know why america thinks that such things wont happen and YES, you should most definitely have armed guards at every entrance to every shul. Why make it easier for such terrorists to get in and do what they did? I know many places around the world where since 911 they have armed security at the entrances to their shuls. What could possibly be bad about that? And you are being delusional to think that this wouldnt help.

etky

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 4:48 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Because that is not a great way to live. It is sad to visit shuls in Europe that are under guard and I shudder to think that perhaps now, in the US too, this will become the norm. It is damaging to the psyche to feel targeted.
Yes, I agree that the Jewish community in the US has been lucky until now.
It seems though that overall the US is becoming a less safe place for everyone, not only Jews- not so much because of terrorism but rather because of crimes motivated by hate or the insane rage of mixed up people who have unlimited access to deadly weapons.
Honestly I do not see a comprehensive solution for this whatwith so many guns already at large so perhaps extra security is the only answer.

chanchy123

Sun, Oct 28 2018, 5:04 am

I didn't really read through the posts either, but here are my two cents (as an outsider).
The issue here is not gun control or security - the issur is antisemitism. As far as I was following Trump's speeches that's the main point he emphasized as well.
The question should be how can America battle antisemitism and antisemitic attacks - how can American Jews keep safe.
And may I add can Jews really create a safehaven in the Diaspora?
The rest is technicalities.
Yes, this is an escelation in blatent anti-Jewish attacks in the US, but Jews are the most targeted group by hate crimes, this has been thr case for years.
This time the attack was "successful" how many "unsuccessful" attempts have there been.
Mordechai told Esther she could not escape the fate of the Jews in the palace of Achashverosh and the Jews of America are no different, they cannot escape their fate.
Add guards, take away guns, whatever floats your boat. You're still Jews and the goldena medina will not protect you forever.