If you run a HS that does not accept every applicant

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:12 pm

I work as part of the admin in a very large hs that has an average of 5 classes per grade. This year we got for the incoming 9th grade, over 180 applicants. Our building is exploading as it is. We physically don’t have where to put another 3-4 classes. So yes, there are over 40 girls that got rejected. Some of the girls weren’t a fit hashkafically, some of the girls weren’t a fit academically, but for every girl that didn’t get in there was a true valid reason. They literally don’t have a choice.
In addition, Part of My job is to supervise the girl’s cellphones. I see over and over the girls that come from families that aren’t a good fit for our school struggle with certain restrictions that the school demands. They beg to get in and then once they are in, all of the sudden they are up and arms when they think the school is turning too much to the “right”. I can’t say schools never make mistakes but overall when a school rejects, parents need to rethink their choices of schools that they are trying to get in to and for the way they lead their life.
I’m not talking about lkwd where there’s a lot of “reputation” and money involved. I’m talking about communities like LA, Passaic, 5 Towns, Chicago etc that have mainstream community schools that at times reject girls.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:21 pm

amother wrote:

You are making assumptions and you are wrong.

One of my daughters ended up getting accepted into a school she was rejected from.
This was with pull and nudging.
She is doing very well there both academically and socially.
And it's a good fit from a hashkafic standpoint.

You are coming across as very ignorant and haughty.

There is no perfect fit for any child-nobody can determine whether a child is a good fit or not unless the child is given a chance.

There is also no school that consists of only A students.
Every school has some academically weak students in it. There are resources in every school to help students who need extra help.

So, why was she rejected in the first place, then? Lack of space doesn't make sense, cause a pull wouldn't change that! And I bet, yours wasn't the only one accepted with a pull.
And it happens in every school.
Why not accept them right away??

amother

Gray

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:34 pm

amother wrote:

See what Rav Shteinman's explanation on the previous (?) page.

GAIVA

The schools will accept whoever they feel is best for their reputation.

Everthing else is just excuses...space constraints, hashkafic incompatibility-it's all baloney.

One of the schools that rejected both my daughters has a shrinking student body.
They reject all girls who score poorly on the entrance exams and they have vacant classrooms.

The school that ended up accepting my daughter did have space constraints but from what I understand they do leave some slots open because they are well aware they will have to cave in to the pressure to accept some of the girls who are left without a high school.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 7:50 pm

amother wrote:

See what Rav Shteinman's explanation on the previous (?) page.

GAIVA

The schools will accept whoever they feel is best for their their reputation.

Everthing else is just excuses...space constraints, hashkafic incompatibility-it's all baloney.

One of the schools that rejected both my daughters has a shrinking student body.
They reject all girls who score poorly on the entrance exams and they have vacant classrooms.

The school that ended up accepting my daughter did have space constraints but from what I understand they do leave some slots open because they are well aware they will have to cave in to the pressure to accept some of the girls who are left without a high school.

I agree that in certain places it’s gaiiva. But not always! See my post above. It’s the first one on this page.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 10:36 pm

amother wrote:

I had a question about the process: Would a student who attends an elementary school outside the community, who takes the BJE and applies to schools within the consortium be guaranteed a spot also?

I didn't read the whole thread but I know of at least one child who lives in the community but was home schooled, took the BJEs and applied to schools within the consortium and only got wait listed.

amother

Silver

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 10:44 pm

amother wrote:

I didn't read the whole thread but I know of at least one child who lives in the community but was home schooled, took the BJEs and applied to schools within the consortium and only got wait listed.

That is unfortunate. What did that child end up doing for high school? I think that the elementary school teachers and administrators play several important roles in the high school selection an placement process: preparing students for BJEs and high school interviews, helping parents and students select appropriate schools, providing recommendations for their students, and advocating for their students during the placement process. I hope that any home-schooled student has someone to help with these tasks.

amother

Gray

Wed, Feb 20 2019, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

I agree that in certain places it’s gaiiva. But not always! See my post above. It’s the first one on this page.

OK, I read your post.

Regarding hashkafic compatibility: can you please explain how exactly the school can determine who will be a good fit.
I'm asking in all sincerity, if a mother looks and acts the part at the interview, does that mean that the family has good hashkafos?
If all parents sign that that their children don't have internet access and/or cell phones, do you really believe that all are being truthful?
You really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
How can you possibly judge who has solid hashkafos and who does not.
And if a teenager struggles with abiding with school rules, so what? There will always be difficult and defiant teens-deal with it.

I can say this from the experience of having a daughter who graduated from a school with a hashkafically toxic environment.
It is a recipe for spiritual disaster when you place so many academically and/or hashkafically weak students together in one school.
It is NOT in the best interest of these children's ruchniyus.

Regarding space constraints: The weak students are always the ones who are left behind when there are limited slots.
There should be some kind of system in place where every school must accept some of the applicants who are academically weak.
Many of them already have poor self-esteem, don't make them suffer and feel unwanted.
It is CRUELTY.
Reject some of the smart/A-students who applied to the school as a backup or second choice, they have no doubt been accepted by their first choice.
And if they haven't for some reason, they will not have difficulty in finding another school who will happily accept them.
If schools were truly not rejecting out of gaiva, and had an iota of compassion and concern for both the spiritual and emotional wellbeing of our precious children they would take these actions.

DrMom

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:10 am

amother wrote:

Regarding space constraints: The weak students are always the ones who are left behind when there are limited slots.
There should be some kind of system in place where every school must accept some of the applicants who are academically weak.
Many of them already have poor self-esteem, don't make them suffer and feel unwanted.
It is CRUELTY.
Reject some of the smart/A-students who applied to the school as a backup or second choice, they have no doubt been accepted by their first choice.
And if they haven't for some reason, they will not have difficulty in finding another school who will happily accept them.

Schools should deliberately reject top candidates? This is lunacy.

As top students accept offers of admission from the school of their choice and reject offers from other schools, spots open up for wait-listed applicants.

Community schools which accept every applicant are good options for weaker candidates.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:16 am

I used to work at a school that had (IMHO) a very fair admission policy.

They didn't wait until all of the applications came in and then cherry pick the best. They took the applications more or less in order, and checked if the student fit the school's main criteria. If yes - in. If no - move on to the next.

But this "all the good students get into the school and we shunt everyone else off into 'other' schools" is good for nobody.

It reminds me of my dear high school that decided one year (only, I think) to split up the classes into what I referred to as the Smart, Average, Dumb, and Bum classes. You can imagine what girls felt like. For reference, I started off in the Smart class and was downgraded to the Average class in the middle of the year.

Great Chinuch, all of this.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:20 am

Unless you live OOT, you likely won't have a community type school. Really what it comes down to, are Jewish children important for our future and continuity? or are they commodities to be traded on the "stock exchange" of the school business.

As much as posters try to compare this to acceptances at private (secular) prep schools, the analogy doesn't work. The frum world has too much riding on this, too much at stake.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:39 am

amother wrote:

I didn't read the whole thread but I know of at least one child who lives in the community but was home schooled, took the BJEs and applied to schools within the consortium and only got wait listed.

Are we talking about this year? A poster from Bergen county said earlier that waitlisted kids need to wait another month. Apparently that's the new system.

It is, not surprisingly, a little harder to place a child who has been home schooled. You don't have a recommendation from a classroom teacher, and it's much harder to get a sense for where the kid is socially and behaviorally.

But I find it hard to believe that no school will take this applicant.

DrMom

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:41 am

amother wrote:

It reminds me of my dear high school that decided one year (only, I think) to split up the classes into what I referred to as the Smart, Average, Dumb, and Bum classes. You can imagine what girls felt like. For reference, I started off in the Smart class and was downgraded to the Average class in the middle of the year.

Great Chinuch, all of this.

We had this in my HS and it was great.

Stronger students were finally getting challenged, and students who need extra help had classes that moved at a pace that allowed them to keep up and actually learn instead of always lagging behind.

It's about learning, not about ego.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 12:44 am

DrMom wrote:

I will point out that in a different school, they split up various subjects into "level-based" learning, and that WAS fantastic. For Chumash, for example, whether you were in 12th grade or 10th, you could be in Level 4 or Level 3. The learning was great! (And, you could be in Level 2 for Chumash but Level 5 in a different subject - much healthier IMHO.)

THAT is a very good thing. But school isn't JUST about academics, it's about social too, and spiritual growth. The latter two don't do as well in a sterile environment.

Trying to keep all girls in a school, or in a class, identical really backfires.

amother

Brown

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 1:11 am

amother wrote:

Schools in Lakewood can easily get 200 applicants for 20 available slots the day registration opens. How does first come first serve work. And what about this whose mailman works slower.
Registration opens on a certain day. How does first come first serve really work there?

Personally I wasn’t bright in school and did great with tracked classes.
My math teachers weren’t rushing to move along, we didn’t have to do Chumash ivrit b’iveit like other classes. And I could still get into the high science and English were I shone. .
For a student like me tracked classes really helped me succeed. I think it’s great.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 1:16 am

amother wrote:

Personally I wasn’t bright in school and did great with tracked classes.
My math teachers weren’t rushing to move along, we didn’t have to do Chumash ivrit b’iveit like other classes. And I could still get into the high science and English were I shone. .
For a student like me tracked classes really helped me succeed. I think it’s great.

Read my post above re tracked CLASSES vs tracked SUBJECTS. I support the latter wholeheartedly, but have serious reservations about the former.

DrMom

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 1:51 am

amother wrote:

Read my post above re tracked CLASSES vs tracked SUBJECTS. I support the latter wholeheartedly, but have serious reservations about the former.

Yes, we had tracked SUBJECTS. If you excelled in history but were very weak in math, you could take advanced history and a lower level math class, etc.

A smaller school may not have the resources to support all these different tracks, so it is reasonable that if they are very academically focused, they might only want top students.

Or it may be a school which puts a large emphasis on mathematics (like the Machon Lev HS in Jerusalem, for example, where you can work toward a BS in Computer Science while in HS). Such a school will not accept a student with weak math skills -- he'd be lost. Accepting such a boy is not doing him any favors.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 5:25 am

amother wrote:

Who is neglectful? The school is private and has the right to remain small. My kids go to a small school and the principle will not open more classes. She runs a great small school but isn’t interested in managing or fundraising an institution. And that is her right.

Why aren’t you neglectful that you didn’t choose to open a school when there wasn’t enough space.
I hold you fully responsible!

I live in a community with enough places for the kids who apply. And have donated to day schools that my kids do not attend, so that they can expand.

If a community has only one small mikvah, everyone needs to pitch in to meet the needs of community as a whole. It's similar with schools - when you don't have enough, you open more. What a wonderful problem, to have many Jewish children who want a Jewish education!

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 7:37 am

My own 2 cents is that it isn't always the schools that are picky, it's the applicants. When new schools open, many applicants don't want to send to a school with no track record and being a student at a "better" school is "better" for shidduchim.

I personally only give donations to schools that my grandchildren attend. I don't see why anyone should support elitist schools unless their own grandchildren are students there. I know some frum but poor girls who were turned down by a local OOT school because the school was supposed to be full and then the school accepted students from another community.

So if schools are a commodity, like a shoe store, let those who attend pay and don't expect support from the community.

At the same time, a girl who is more modern probably won't be happy in a very RW school and it may invite more rebellion.

amother

Amber

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 7:58 am

amother wrote:

Spot on! In community like communities the school administration does know the families. It’s not a matter of “what they do behind closed doors”. It’s how they dress when they shop in the supermarkets, where they have vacationed for the last ten years (while their child was in the preschool and elementary school) and which camps they chose to send their child to.