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-> In the News
Fox
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 Sun, May 26 2019, 4:56 pm
| Lesia wrote: | | Says the person who introduced British politics and names into a thread that had nothing to do with it, just to humble brag her knowledge of world politics. |
You caught me! Talking about something that's literally been all over the news for the past week. And talking about what's going on in Britain in a thread about . . . something going on in Britain! I must have had a momentary lapse and forgotten that Imamother only allows sharing hyper-emotional, unsupported opinions. My bad!
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PinkFridge
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:03 pm
Lesia, I'm not Hashem's accountant.
I am really trying to see it from your side and you know what? I can hear people feeling discomfort, even though I don't. And I give you props for doing this under your sn.
Just to be clear, though, I clearly don't feel the discomfort and I for one feel that at this point in his life, he is an ongoing kiddush Hashem.
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:03 pm
| Fox wrote: | | You caught me! Talking about something that's literally been all over the news for the past week. And talking about what's going on in Britain in a thread about . . . something going on in Britain! I must have had a momentary lapse and forgotten that Imamother only allows sharing hyper-emotional, unsupported opinions. My bad! |
You mocked my post - which was completely on topic - in the most humiliating way because you couldn’t handle the emotion, and now you’re the victim.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:05 pm
| Fox wrote: | | Ma'am, this is a pizza shop. |
I confess: I do not understand this. Is this some reference to a Monty Python sketch or something?
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:14 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | | I confess: I do not understand this. Is this some reference to a Monty Python sketch or something? |
I’m not sure where it’s from, but it’s used to poke fun of and shut down displays of emotion and irrelevant ranting that’s considered off topic.
A lovely thing to do, obviously.
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Fox
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:22 pm
| Lesia wrote: | | You mocked my post - which was completely on topic - in the most humiliating way because you couldn’t handle the emotion, and now you’re the victim. |
No, I mocked your post because it was wildly hyperbolic and seriously undermined the point you were trying to make. That was wrong of me, and I apologize. Obviously this topic is an emotional one for you.
But I'm never, ever a victim. Risus est bellum, even if it did come from Chesterton.
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amother
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:28 pm
| Fox wrote: | No, I mocked your post because it was wildly hyperbolic and seriously undermined the point you were trying to make. That was wrong of me, and I apologize. Obviously this topic is an emotional one for you.
But I'm never, ever a victim. Risus est bellum, even if it did come from Chesterton. |
She is making a point that other posters on this thread have made as well, and frankly, one that I mostly agree with. Yes, very few people deny that Rubashkin was a victim of a witch hunt. However, that does not mitigate the fact that he did something seriously wrong.
To give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to live as a regular member of his kehilla is one thing. But to hail him as a hero is just plain wrong. He should be keeping a low profile, or at the very least talking to people about what he did wrong and how he saw the error of his ways. It seems like he is very well cast in the shoes of the poor witch hunt victim.
I agree that the idea of Gan Eden was hyperbolic, but not unreasonably so. It was to make a point: he is not a tzadik because a wrong was done to him.
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Fox
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:30 pm
| Lesia wrote: | | I’m not sure where it’s from, but it’s used to poke fun of and shut down displays of emotion and irrelevant ranting that’s considered off topic. |
IME, less about relevancy and more about pointing out to someone that his/her posts are are out of sync with the level of emotion and passion being displayed in the thread. Usually, "Ma'am, this is a Wendy's," but I kashered it for the audience.
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:42 pm
| Fox wrote: | | IME, less about relevancy and more about pointing out to someone that his/her posts are are out of sync with the level of emotion and passion being displayed in the thread. Usually, "Ma'am, this is a Wendy's," but I kashered it for the audience. |
So because it didn’t live up to your standards of levelheadedness and passion, you felt the urgent need and responsibility to mock it and shut me down.
Like I said, lovely.
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Fox
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:50 pm
| smileforamile wrote: | Fox, I normally love your posts, but I did think that was mean-spirited and also incorrect.
She is making a point that other posters on this thread have made as well, and frankly, one that I mostly agree with. Yes, very few people deny that Rubashkin was a victim of a witch hunt. However, that does not mitigate the fact that he did something seriously wrong.
To give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to live as a regular member of his kehilla is one thing. But to hail him as a hero is just plain wrong. He should be keeping a low profile, or at the very least talking to people about what he did wrong and how he saw the error of his ways. It seems like he is very well cast in the shoes of the poor witch hunt victim.
I agree that the idea of Gan Eden was hyperbolic, but not unreasonably so. It was to make a point: he is not a tzadik because a wrong was done to him. |
Um, that's why I apologized. I shouldn't have made fun.
So let's examine the logical fallacy instead. The assumption that R' Rubashkin is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme.
He is admired because he behaved with grace, bitachon, and emunah despite being the victim of serious injustice. I won't rehash the facts of the case or his sentencing, but anyone who doubts it is free to read the analysis of legal experts and former U.S. AGs from both parties -- all of whom were appalled by the prosecutorial misconduct.
A good analogy would be if you got a speeding ticket -- 8 miles over the speed limit. But when you appeared before the judge, the DA asked for 15 years in prison and the judge gave you 10.
Did you commit a crime? Yes. Should you suffer the typical consequences for that crime? Yes. But no one gets a 10 year prison sentence for going 8 miles over the speed limit.
Now imagine you behaved with dignity and optimism throughout, your faith in Hashem never seeming to waver. You would -- and should -- be admired not because you broke the law and your case became famous. Rather, because you refused to give in to bitterness and despair.
R' Rubashkin inspires people because he faced a horrible nisoyon and retained his emunah. Can you argue that at least a portion of his nisoyon was due to his own actions? Of course! But that's true for virtually all of us! No one is justifying wrongdoing. We are simply acknowledging a tremendous nisoyon and a man's success in putting his trust in Hashem.
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Fox
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:54 pm
| Lesia wrote: | So because it didn’t live up to your standards of levelheadedness and passion, you felt the urgent need and responsibility to mock it and shut me down.
Like I said, lovely. |
I apologized. You can choose to accept it or not. I obviously didn't shut you down -- you're still here
Somehow, though, I think you were better off with a bit of mocking than with a full dissection of the inherent flaw in your argument.
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shoshanim999
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Sun, May 26 2019, 5:59 pm
| Mevater wrote: | I think what has to be considered is his wrongdoing relative to his "right"doing.
I dont know anyone, especially the very wealthy, who dont have something they want hidden, to avoid taxes, or when building businesses, etc.
Id like to see the UK deny entry to Jeff Bezos, who I am 100% certain has lots of financial stuff thats hidden. |
Hashem yirachem. You don't see the difference? One was convicted of a crime and the other wasn't. We can't run the system in a way that assumes if you are super wealthy, you are probably guilty of something.
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:01 pm
| Fox wrote: | Um, that's why I apologized. I shouldn't have made fun.
So let's examine the logical fallacy instead. The assumption that R' Rubashkin is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme.
He is admired because he behaved with grace, bitachon, and emunah despite being the victim of serious injustice. I won't rehash the facts of the case or his sentencing, but anyone who doubts it is free to read the analysis of legal experts and former U.S. AGs from both parties -- all of whom were appalled by the prosecutorial misconduct.
A good analogy would be if you got a speeding ticket -- 8 miles over the speed limit. But when you appeared before the judge, the DA asked for 15 years in prison and the judge gave you 10.
Did you commit a crime? Yes. Should you suffer the typical consequences for that crime? Yes. But no one gets a 10 year prison sentence for going 8 miles over the speed limit.
Now imagine you behaved with dignity and optimism throughout, your faith in Hashem never seeming to waver. You would -- and should -- be admired not because you broke the law and your case became famous. Rather, because you refused to give in to bitterness and despair.
R' Rubashkin inspires people because he faced a horrible nisoyon and retained his emunah. Can you argue that at least a portion of his nisoyon was due to his own actions? Of course! But that's true for virtually all of us! No one is justifying wrongdoing. We are simply acknowledging a tremendous nisoyon and a man's success in putting his trust in Hashem. |
The assumption that he is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme? You must not be aware of his status in the community and the platforms he is given. Just read Cheiny’s post on the first page, where she hails him as someone who has more frumkeit and relationship to Hashem than the rest of us, who haven’t committed the crime and made the chillul Hashem that he has. Those sentiments echo many of those in the frum community. You are totally wrong about this.
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:04 pm
| Fox wrote: | I apologized. You can choose to accept it or not. I obviously didn't shut you down -- you're still here
Somehow, though, I think you were better off with a bit of mocking than with a full dissection of the inherent flaw in your argument. |
The only reason you see a flaw in my argument is because you are apparently unaware of his current status in the frum community. There is no flaw in my argument.
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ectomorph
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:08 pm
| Fox wrote: | Um, that's why I apologized. I shouldn't have made fun.
So let's examine the logical fallacy instead. The assumption that R' Rubashkin is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme.
He is admired because he behaved with grace, bitachon, and emunah despite being the victim of serious injustice. I won't rehash the facts of the case or his sentencing, but anyone who doubts it is free to read the analysis of legal experts and former U.S. AGs from both parties -- all of whom were appalled by the prosecutorial misconduct.
A good analogy would be if you got a speeding ticket -- 8 miles over the speed limit. But when you appeared before the judge, the DA asked for 15 years in prison and the judge gave you 10.
Did you commit a crime? Yes. Should you suffer the typical consequences for that crime? Yes. But no one gets a 10 year prison sentence for going 8 miles over the speed limit.
Now imagine you behaved with dignity and optimism throughout, your faith in Hashem never seeming to waver. You would -- and should -- be admired not because you broke the law and your case became famous. Rather, because you refused to give in to bitterness and despair.
R' Rubashkin inspires people because he faced a horrible nisoyon and retained his emunah. Can you argue that at least a portion of his nisoyon was due to his own actions? Of course! But that's true for virtually all of us! No one is justifying wrongdoing. We are simply acknowledging a tremendous nisoyon and a man's success in putting his trust in Hashem. |
Agreed. And I should note that the ones calling for his crazy sentence were the liberal Jews. They are our enemies.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:13 pm
| Fox wrote: | Um, that's why I apologized. I shouldn't have made fun.
So let's examine the logical fallacy instead. The assumption that R' Rubashkin is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme.
He is admired because he behaved with grace, bitachon, and emunah despite being the victim of serious injustice. I won't rehash the facts of the case or his sentencing, but anyone who doubts it is free to read the analysis of legal experts and former U.S. AGs from both parties -- all of whom were appalled by the prosecutorial misconduct.
A good analogy would be if you got a speeding ticket -- 8 miles over the speed limit. But when you appeared before the judge, the DA asked for 15 years in prison and the judge gave you 10.
Did you commit a crime? Yes. Should you suffer the typical consequences for that crime? Yes. But no one gets a 10 year prison sentence for going 8 miles over the speed limit.
Now imagine you behaved with dignity and optimism throughout, your faith in Hashem never seeming to waver. You would -- and should -- be admired not because you broke the law and your case became famous. Rather, because you refused to give in to bitterness and despair.
R' Rubashkin inspires people because he faced a horrible nisoyon and retained his emunah. Can you argue that at least a portion of his nisoyon was due to his own actions? Of course! But that's true for virtually all of us! No one is justifying wrongdoing. We are simply acknowledging a tremendous nisoyon and a man's success in putting his trust in Hashem. |
Fox, I could detect no logical fallacy in Lesia's post. (And yes, I'm an expert in detecting logical fallacies.) In any case, you don't demonstrate a logical fallacy by bringing an analogy, and certainly not an analogy as poor as the one you brought. It's a poor analogy because speeding is not a crime. It's an infraction of the law. It would merit a fine, not a prison sentence, unless an actual crime, such as DUI (which is considered a criminal offense in many states), is happening co-temporally with the speeding. This is very different from the Rubashkin case, in which the offenses that Rubashkin was accused of -- for example, hiring illegal immigrants, and violating labor laws -- were in fact true crimes carrying prison sentences.
On a thread that was started shortly after Rubashkin was released, I mentioned some of the disturbing details of what Rubashkin was accused of, and I believe I got a warning from Yael or one of the moderators. So I don't feel comfortable posting them again. If you wish, you can Google "Rubashkin working conditions labor law" or some similar phrase. This wasn't speeding. Many of us feel that Rubashkin's actions caused a chillul Hashem and that it would be best for him to live out his life quietly doing acts of chessed but not expecting acclamation. We believe this at the same time as we realize that the length of the sentence was unfair.
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Fox
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:17 pm
| Lesia wrote: | | The assumption that he is being hailed as a tzaddik is facile in the extreme? You must not be aware of his status in the community and the platforms he is given. Just read Cheiny’s post on the first page, where she hails him as someone who has more frumkeit and relationship to Hashem than the rest of us, who haven’t committed the crime and made the chillul Hashem that he has. Those sentiments echo many of those in the frum community. You are totally wrong about this. |
Sorry, but I see no evidence for what you claim. It is impossible for any of us to know how Hashem will weigh another's mitzvahs and transgressions, but given the outpouring of support from many non-Jewish legal heavyweights, I believe you are significantly overestimating the chillul Hashem.
In the speeches and introductions I've heard, the emphasis has been almost exclusively on maintaining emunah when everything seems stacked against you. I suppose there are always people who take admiration too far, but if we insist that everyone we admire have no faults or history of poor judgment . . . well, that's a different religion.
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pause
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:20 pm
| JoyInTheMorning wrote: | Fox, I could detect no logical fallacy in Lesia's post. (And yes, I'm an expert in detecting logical fallacies.) In any case, you don't demonstrate a logical fallacy by bringing an analogy, and certainly not an analogy as poor as the one you brought. It's a poor analogy because speeding is not a crime. It's an infraction of the law. It would merit a fine, not a prison sentence, unless an actual crime, such as DUI (which is considered a criminal offense in many states), is happening co-temporally with the speeding. This is very different from the Rubashkin case, in which the offenses that Rubashkin was accused of -- for example, hiring illegal immigrants, and violating labor laws -- were in fact true crimes carrying prison sentences.
On a thread that was started shortly after Rubashkin was released, I mentioned some of the disturbing details of what Rubashkin was accused of, and I believe I got a warning from Yael or one of the moderators. So I don't feel comfortable posting them again. If you wish, you can Google "Rubashkin working conditions labor law" or some similar phrase. This wasn't speeding. Many of us feel that Rubashkin's actions caused a chillul Hashem and that it would be best for him to live out his life quietly doing acts of chessed but not expecting acclamation. We believe this at the same time as we realize that the length of the sentence was unfair. |
You do know he was acquitted of all those charges, right?
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Lesia
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:21 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | | Agreed. And I should note that the ones calling for his crazy sentence were the liberal Jews. They are our enemies. |
Few people deny that the sentence was harsh. Even your enemies.
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shoshanim999
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Sun, May 26 2019, 6:22 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | | Agreed. And I should note that the ones calling for his crazy sentence were the liberal Jews. They are our enemies. |
Do you believe he should have received any jail time?
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