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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:11 pm
My 14 year old keeps fighting with my 10 year old son and my 10 year old gives it out on my 5 year old . It goes like a chain . My 14 year old is putting him fown with so much verbal criticism and labels him that something is wrong with him and calls him names. I keep talking to my 14 year old to stop but it just continues. Im beyond scared it shouldnt leave an effect on my 10 year old. How is the right way to handle this ?? I just cant anymore!! Its going yo far, and my 10 year old threatens my 5 year old . Help! Its sooo hard . Going out of my mind! Talking yo them is like talking to yhe walls . Any leads??
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Stars




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:14 pm
therapy stat, for you and your oldest separately.
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amother




Seafoam
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:23 pm
This is a phenomenon I've seen time and time again. An older sibling puts down the younger sibling, and then instead of the younger sibling taking to heart how it feels, he goes and puts down the sibling under him.
I've had this in my own family (5 boys) and it would repeat itself all the time. The older child would eventually outgrow the stage (usually around 9th grade age) and then the victim who has been "bullied" all this time goes on to "bully" his younger brother!
It is so upsetting to watch but is also a normal part of sibling rivalry.
That being said, I do not know the extent of the fighting and putting down on your end. If you feel that it is extreme or is harming the child, you should definitely reach out to a chinuch expert.
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Stars




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:26 pm
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
This is a phenomenon I've seen time and time again. An older sibling puts down the younger sibling, and then instead of the younger sibling taking to heart how it feels, he goes and puts down the sibling under him.
I've had this in my own family (5 boys) and it would repeat itself all the time. The older child would eventually outgrow the stage (usually around 9th grade age) and then the victim who has been "bullied" all this time goes on to "bully" his younger brother!
It is so upsetting to watch but is also a normal part of sibling rivalry.
That being said, I do not know the extent of the fighting and putting down on your end. If you feel that it is extreme or is harming the child, you should definitely reach out to a chinuch expert.


if something is common that doesn't make it normal. this kind of situation the way op describes it is extremely damaging in the long run.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:51 pm
Stars wrote:
therapy stat, for you and your oldest separately.


I cant understand why every bad situation ppl give advice. Theripist's. I so dont believe in theripy. I did have very bad experience.
I feel its the mothers roll to take action and help out which I just need to pick up the right tools , meaning I'd reach out to a chinach expert rather then a therapist.
I was just reaching out here to see if someone is in a similar situation or is an expert in how to deal with it.
And now my concerning question is: do u really think sibling fighting can lead to damage in the long run?? Im like kind of freaking out now!!!
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trixx




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:53 pm
It's against the rules so I don't say that I think we've heard from you before, but if you have indeed posted about this 14 year old before, you need in real life help to learn how to parent him effectively.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 7:57 pm
have a family meeting. state your observation. state your objective. ask for input (but do not get side tracked). set consequences and positive reinforcements enforce them

set a no tolerance policy from the top down - give consequences consistently

you will see positive change!

hugs and hatzlocha
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amother




Ivory
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 10:25 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I cant understand why every bad situation ppl give advice. Theripist's. I so dont believe in theripy. I did have very bad experience.
I feel its the mothers roll to take action and help out which I just need to pick up the right tools , meaning I'd reach out to a chinach expert rather then a therapist.
I was just reaching out here to see if someone is in a similar situation or is an expert in how to deal with it.
And now my concerning question is: do u really think sibling fighting can lead to damage in the long run?? Im like kind of freaking out now!!!

Yes it can lead to real damage. You know that critical voice in my head? The one that beats me up (where I beat myself up all the time and I am super hard on myself)? At the age of 36 I finally identified whose voice is in my head cursing me out when I make a small mistake, when I am being human... It's my sibling's voice. It's still affecting me today. You know who gave her the tools to be able to put me down when I was little? Her older two sisters bullied her!

The damage can be devastating. Do not allow this to continue for one more minute.
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lifesagift




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 06 2020, 10:39 pm
Just curious, what happens when you intervene? I'm sure you tell her it's unacceptable. Does she take heart? Is she improving? It may very well be a passing stage which should not affect your younger ones imo. I wouldn't negate therapy either, I believe it could help, but until then you should stick up for the victim and dont forget to build up all of your children not just when they act out
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amother




OP
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 2:02 am
lifesagift wrote:
Just curious, what happens when you intervene? I'm sure you tell her it's unacceptable. Does she take heart? Is she improving? It may very well be a passing stage which should not affect your younger ones imo. I wouldn't negate therapy either, I believe it could help, but until then you should stick up for the victim and dont forget to build up all of your children not just when they act out


Its a he. no she's in my house .

I feel terribly bad for my 10 year old . He is sandwiched in between older and younger sibling . Some how he is always the kid that get criticized a lot. He has sensory issues which is giving me a very hard time and I talk to him very nicely about it how to change that. while I try to teach him anything in life , should it be even academicly, or something I want him to change for the better since he is giving a rough time a lot with certain things and some times I loose my patience yet most of the time im so sensitive how I talk to him and how I explain to him or try to bribe him , nothing helps but especially he is a type of kid that even it comes a teachable moment he is always going to take it as a critic and I so dont even begin to come from a place of being critical, I explain how things should be and why... its hard because I cant teach him or direct him since whenever I will bring up anything he will accept it in a negative way.

I feel especially sensitive to him when he gets threatened by his older brother because I know with him we gotta be extra careful and I never ever would use cv bad language or label him as bad. I just say "im your mom and I just wanna teach u that this and this is the right way" or u gotta listen (not long lectures) because mommy means only good . He is giving me a very hard time with 2 things I expect from him differently and he cant follow that. its very hard for both of us .
For me its hard because I expect differently from him while he wants it his way so their is constant back and fourth about that . I even tried to tame it down and not talk about it too often anymore so I figured he might've change his mind, but came to be that he never changes his mind he wants it to be the way he decides but interesting part is how strong he is about that and I feel its coming across a bit stubborn not being able to convince him .

question: Is it normal for kids to be so unconvinced no matter what ???

It bothers him a lot. I know it came to a point that I need to reach out to a theripist and ask proper advice. I want both of us to be happy . Im very bothered by him not wanna do or take action what is told, and I know he is bothered by me keeping reminding him.
So im just making more clear the situation here . He is struggling with not being able to follow through what I want from him and when I talk to him he is taking it as a critic when I so do not come from a place of criticizing.
Explaining to him doesnt help anymore . Talking about it doesnt help so I have to see how to bring up the situation to the next level. So with all that, his brother puts him down with so much not nice words, ds doesnt hear it from me , im very very sensitive not to hurt his feelings and as I said before that even when I dont label and eventhough I say it in the nicest way possible, he still feels I touched him. So imagine the real labeling and the real name calling how it makes him feel While he already has enough low self esteem. I feel tremendous terrible for him! I want him to feel good and happy, I have to see how I can make peace with this situation. But @ same time it bothers me tremendously that he is not taking me seriously and he doesnt wanna follow through what is expected. I would love him to change in 2 areas. so far it aint happening, he is unconvinced. I dont know what to do anymore . I guess I sure need a therapist involved. He is 10 kh I hope there is still hope for things to change for the better . He should be happy . (I can tell he is in pain) and I should maybe not expect (though I still feel im the mother and he should still follow along) but if its really causing pain and hurting him maybe its just time to let go . I need a healthy child too . This fighting about it is in the way causing damage ...
The thing is I would love to know why I cant convince him to change a certain habbit , bribing, charts , nothing helps. .
a kid normally should let himself listen or hear out a mother and should be able to change his mind . This that he does not wanna change his mind no matter what is not something I feel is the norm . Normally a child should be convinced easier. If anyone has something to add or any thought about this please im open to hear good advice. Thank you!!
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disneyland




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 2:25 am
You described the situation very well. Would the older one be able to read with the 10 year old so that you are changing roles in a way that the older brother can give to the younger one and it will allow for increased love.
For example, if the older one likes a certain subject like science, he can tell the 10 year old all about science fairs or whatever topic they like.
If your 14 year old likes drawing, you can get a book from the library on simple drawing g and the 14 year old could help the 10 year old.
You can alternatively ask the 10 year old to read to the 5 year old. It might not be an overnight change. But if they learn to help each other step by step, they can learn to love each other iyh. Its just a thought and something I have BH learnt to do. What do you think?
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Rappel




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 4:17 am
Can you give your 14 year old a job that will give him purpose and responsibility? Something that appeals to him - a local chessed organization, a horse stable, working at a friend's mechanic shop, tutoring other boys? If he's focused on that, then baiting his brother may lose its appeal.
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tf




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:27 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I cant understand why every bad situation ppl give advice. Theripist's. I so dont believe in theripy. I did have very bad experience.
I feel its the mothers roll to take action and help out which I just need to pick up the right tools , meaning I'd reach out to a chinach expert rather then a therapist.
I was just reaching out here to see if someone is in a similar situation or is an expert in how to deal with it.
And now my concerning question is: do u really think sibling fighting can lead to damage in the long run?? Im like kind of freaking out now!!!

If you didn't have a therapist that didn't work out well it doesn't say the same about ALL therapists. That shiddech was not a good fit. Even though what you're describing happens very often in families, it doesn't mean it's not to be discussed with a professional. I can give you tons of advice here, over the internet, but I don't know you as a person. A professional will get to know what works specifically for you and your child.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:32 am
you are right
talking does not always help
Id stop talking and trying to convince.
id list out consequences linked to concrete behaviors.
id list out positive reinforcements linked to concrete behaviors.
I would make it clear that the rules have changed.
That "bullying" is not tolerated. Its not too late. Freaking out dos not help.
Put your energy toward making this change.

The age differences also are too great for you to let this go on.

hugs and hatzlocha
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tf




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:35 am
Aside from trying to stop the older one, also talk to the younger one. Tell him how wonderful he really is. Hug until he lets go of you. Sympathize, kiss etc. Be on his side. Every. Single. Time. He's being hurt by his older brother. This will help stop the cycle of going to his younger sibling.
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Stars




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:38 am
Convinced = controlled and no one likes being controlled. No one. Please I am begging you get help now.
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:46 am
Therapy does seem to be a popular answer to most problems here.

I think a parenting coach or just a rebetzin whose parenting style you connect with can be a helpful real life reference.

It's not therapy but it is using a "qualified professional" for guidance.

My son has a rebbe he absolutely adores. This rebbe isn't a father yet (please Hashem soon) but anytime I need advice on how to get through to my son I call this rebbe. And he seems to know what will work best.

Increasing love between your kids would be great. But maybe also find ways to get them all their personal space. It's possible everyone is also too close for comfort. Maybe get each boy their own after school program that they like. How busy are your kids? Sometimes these things happen because the kids are just not busy enough. They need to be busy with school work, learning/davening, chores, and a hobby.

Get your two older boys hobbies so they're too busy.
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amother




Forestgreen
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 7:48 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I cant understand why every bad situation ppl give advice. Theripist's. I so dont believe in theripy. I did have very bad experience.
I feel its the mothers roll to take action and help out which I just need to pick up the right tools , meaning I'd reach out to a chinach expert rather then a therapist.
I was just reaching out here to see if someone is in a similar situation or is an expert in how to deal with it.
And now my concerning question is: do u really think sibling fighting can lead to damage in the long run?? Im like kind of freaking out now!!!


I didn't read the rest of this thread, only until this point, so forgive me if I'm repeating what others said. Therapy doesn't have to be a therapist with a degree. It can also be a really good mechanech or parental guide. You stated in your op that 14 yo doesn't stop even after your talks, hence your talks to him are ineffective. You need someone, either a therapist with a degree, or someone in chinuch who specializes with this, to teach you how to change your talks and how to get them more effective.
Hatzlacha!
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Mama Bear




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 9:31 am
I have this with my own 14 yr old. He can't put down his 11 yr old brother bc that brother doesnt live at home - and he instead bullies the 6 yr old. a lot. physically and emotionally.
It's really hard to live with. I've tried so many things.
Often the 14 yr old just needs a lot of attention / validation / one-on-one-time / praise. They're jealous of the younger sibs.
Also, a 14 yr old is old & smart enough to udnerstand that put-downs can leave emotional scars. You can have a heart-to-heart talk with him to find out what's triggering all this. He might be having a hard time in yeshiva and this is his way of venting. Try to help him find healthier venting tools - even if it 's just going into his room and punching his bed with all his might.
It's a difficult stage, but iyh he'll outgrow it. Meantime it's not easy! Hugs!
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Mamushka




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 07 2020, 10:40 am
A few things come to mind.
Your child might want to be accepted the way he is and not want you to demand change.
The older onemight be jelous of the attention the younger one gets.
Get specific advise what you can change and then the kids will most probably also change
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