Aliyah pros and cons?

DrMom

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 3:03 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Are there $store type stores (1 sheck?), Or like 5 and under kinda stuff? How expensive is food, and other Evey day items? Like, can u get shampoo and deoderant and detergents for under 5 sheck?

Prices for personal care items like shampoo and deodorant are not going to be a major factor.

Budget considerations that have a larger impact:

- Tuition. Ranges from free for dati leumi elementary schools to very low cost for other religious elementary schools. High schools are also a fraction of the cost of US religious schools. Some are also free. If you have a large family, this can be a key economic consideration. Preschool is also free or highly subsidized.

- Housing. Way more expensive, esp if you move somewhere with a decent percentage of English-speakers. Be prepared to downsize.

- Employment. The economy is quite strong; your DH should be able to find something with the qualifications you described.

Resources for immigrant children vary by community; coming when kids are young is a huge plus. Any Hebrew they can acquire ahead of time is a plus, but they'll pick it up here, esp if they are young.

Having no no local family is difficult. It can be mitigated by finding a great community where you can make good friends.

Good luck!

banana123

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 3:05 am

Pros: Reasonable/ cheap tuition, cheap and accessible healthcare, good public transportation, being in Israel, kids grow up speaking Hebrew, mild winters, you can live on less, 3 months paid maternity leave, some people (like me) appreciate how Israelis "are all one family" even if that means they sometimes act like your mother and tell you what to do. Everything is relatively close by.

Cons: Family isn't here, you may never learn Hebrew, living in Anglo bubbles is expensive, it can be hard to find a job/ hard to make ends meet, your kids may be traumatized (by rockets, sirens, terror attacks, rock attacks, and the like), your kids may not fit in and you may not like how rough around the edges Israelis can be, you may not like how some Israeli kids are allowed to hit/ bully "because it's a stage", if you open a business you deal with double taxes.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 3:40 am

OP: In answer to your question about toiletries, deodorant is more expensive. I bought Lady Speed Stick roll-on last time and it was 10 shekels. That's the low end of normal priced roll-on. I buy a lot of toiletries from the store "BOOOM!". Israeli brands of shampoo, conditioner and body wash are nice-sized bottles (approx. 18 oz.) for 5 shekels each. Brut bar soap is two bars for 5 shekels. Four bars of 3.5 oz. Dove soap are 10 shekels. Oral B toothbrushes were six for 12.5 shekels, IIRC.

But toothpaste and mouthwash I buy from Amazon.

amother

Coral

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 4:00 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

BOOOOM is only in Be'er Sheva, AFAIK. (Great store. I got a pair of Avent pacifiers for 25 NIS. They don't carry everything all the time, though.) But Max Stock might have in other cities.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 6:12 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Cons:
You will always be an immigrant. Always. In 80 years, people will hear your accent and know that you are an immigrant. Some parts of Israeli culture will never feel normal to you.

So what? I actually keep talking to my husband about this, how we are very much like our grandparents (his great grandparents) who came from europe, to different countries, and made new lives for themselves.
Why does it matter if that country is israel, america, china, france, south africa or england? Yes, an immigrant will always be an immigrant, but many times (not always but many times) you get from people "kol hakavod" that you upped and left all that you knew to make our lives here.

And while some cultural things might not feel "home" to you, other things are just as new as you and the next immigrant. This country was and is still being, built by immigrants. Nothing to be ashamed of or to sneeze at either.

amother

Gray

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 6:56 am

Our family made aliyah several years ago. We're in the process of leaving Eretz Yisroel presently. I'm happy we made aliyah, even though we aren't staying. There were great aspects of living here, and serious struggles as well. I've found the pros and cons of living in Eretz Yisroel to be as follows:

Pros: Children learn Hebrew. Limudei Kodesh is on a very high level. Less materialistic society. You'll definitely become a lot smarter living here... If you are used to paying American priced tuition and health insurance it's much cheaper here. The large Jewish community.

Cons: Good luck fitting your kids in; unless they were born here or moved as babies it's almost impossible imho. Very high cost of living even in small towns. Many rude if not outright aggressive people who treat you like second class because you're "chutznik" or belong to a different society than them (too frum, not frum enough, whatever). Very low salaries, poor working conditions and a much longer work week than in Western countries (especially if you're European).

If you make aliyah with the attitude that you'll leave should it not work out, that's probably smarter than being idealistic and dedicated to stay no matter what. Despite its greatness we're not all cut out for life in present day Israel. But you can try and see how it goes.

amother

Gray

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 7:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Are there $store type stores (1 sheck?), Or like 5 and under kinda stuff? How expensive is food, and other Evey day items? Like, can u get shampoo and deoderant and detergents for under 5 sheck?

You can get all the clothes you want for extremely cheap at gemachs, and much in the way of toys/small home goods at 1 shekel stores. The problem for many families is low salaries and a very high housing/food cost. Tuition is about $150 per child at private schools (which I recommend, because State schools can be rough environments) and this cost adds up too, especially if your kids need bussing to school this can run $120-$150 per child per month in addition. Not sure which types of communities you're looking at, but Ramat Beit Shemesh costs nearly on par with much of Jerusalem. For a 3 bedroom apartment expect to pay over $2,000 per month for rent/arnona (a big expense)/utilities (which cost on par here with Western Europe and more than much of the States from what I hear).

My husband also works in computers, and has nearly 20 years experience. But to me it seems you really need to know someone here to get a good computer job. Also, a lot of potential projects are advertised as actual jobs; sometimes the projects take off and turn into jobs, sometimes not. So check out the job market before moving. Your best bets for tech jobs are probably near Tel Aviv, Beer Sheva or Haifa.

banana123

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 7:20 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

While I respect your decision to leave, I find that those who make aliya and are open to leaving if it doesn't work out, are more likely to have acclimation difficulties and end up leaving.

Those who come with the belief that this is where they belong, and they will make it work no matter what, find that they have a much better time integrating and their children do as well. They are much less likely to leave after a few years.

A lot of it really is about mindset.

I don't know that people become smarter by living here or that the limudei kodesh are on a higher level. I would, though, say that Israelis tend to be somewhat rude but underneath they are very caring and helpful, mostly they respect olim and while they chide you as if they were your aunt or uncle, they are also willing to help you as if they were your aunt and uncle.

Salaries are low, the work week is longer, working conditions - depends where you work. The high cost of living is limited to more popular areas, but those willing to go north or south are usually able to find cheaper housing, daycare, etc.

Fitting in, it depends on the locality, personalities, your own parenting style, and much more.

It's not for everyone, that's for sure. I strongly believe that each person has his or her place, where s/he belongs. Israel isn't for everyone. But if you think it might be for you, a "we'll do what it takes to make it work" does loads of good.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 7:31 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Cons: Good luck fitting your kids in; unless they were born here or moved as babies it's almost impossible imho. Very high cost of living even in small towns. Many rude if not outright aggressive people who treat you like second class because you're "chutznik" or belong to a different society than them (too frum, not frum enough, whatever). Very low salaries, poor working conditions and a much longer work week than in Western countries (especially if you're European).

If you make aliyah with the attitude that you'll leave should it not work out, that's probably smarter than being idealistic and dedicated to stay no matter what. Despite its greatness we're not all cut out for life in present day Israel. But you can try and see how it goes.

I respect your experience and your decision to leave but I very much disagree. My son came at 8 years old and he is in the army with all Israelis and they respect him so much and he's helping everyone improve their English. He has many Israeli friends.
I have never felt like second class by Israelis. We live in a mixed neighborhood and everyone has a lot of respect for each other (Israelis to the Anglos and vice versa).

I agree with banana about attitude. We came with the mindset of "we are making this work no matter what". neither DH nor I or any of our kids want to move back at all.

avrahamama

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 7:48 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Can I ask you where you live in Israel? Do you think not being absorbed by the local community has anything to do with the part of Israel you live in?

heidi

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 8:30 am

Our family made aliyah several years ago. We're in the process of leaving Eretz Yisroel presently. 'm happy we made aliyah, even though we aren't staying. There were great aspects of living here, and serious struggles as well. 've found the pros and cons of living in Eretz Yisroel to be as follows:

Pros: Children learn Hebrew. Limudei Kodesh is on a very high level. Less materialistic society. You'll definitely become a lot smarter living here... If you are used to paying American priced tuition and health insurance it's much cheaper here. The large Jewish community.

Cons: Good luck fitting your kids in; unless they were born here or moved as babies it's almost impossible imho. Very high cost of living even in small towns. Many rude if not outright aggressive people who treat you like second class because you're "chutznik" or belong to a different society than them (too frum, not frum enough, whatever). Very low salaries, poor working conditions and a much longer work week than in Western countries (especially if you're European).

I am the first to cite the problems with living in Israel. Usually too much.
But so much of your post has not been true for us.
We made aliyah when our oldest was 12. At age 20 he served in the army with all Israelis- fit in great.
Our next son married a total Israeli. Learns in an Israeli yeshiva- they use him to translate for celebrity donors.
My children communicate with each other and their Anglo/Israeli friends in Hebrew.
Salaries are definitely lower.
But OP and her husband have skill sets that can help them succeed.
I started working in a completely Israeli environment from the second year I lived here.
Never, not once, have I been treated badly or disrespectfully for being a chutznik.
I have had judges in court patiently wait for me to find the right word in Hebrew.
I miss Target.
I miss my family and my friends.
I miss the variety of kosher food and yummy meat available in America.
Here I feel safe. I feel loved. I feel that I belong.
My children have real values based on being taught and growing up in our land that has been so bitterly fought for and finally won.
There is no comparison.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 9:42 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

1. Im sorry that you had a bad experience with your kids fitting in, but that is individual, not across the board for olim children. We have many in our community and that does not seem to be the case.
(I have said this before, and I will say it again. It is unfortunate but this seems to happen more in some communities than others)
2. Again, I am very sorry that you were ever treated as "chutznikim", but that again, is not something that all israelis do. Its here and there, but its also probably done on some level, in any number of countries, to immigrants.

amother

Gray

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 10:04 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Thank you for feeling sorry for us, but don't worry- we're not sorry, because we see Israel for what it is, not the illusion we used to have. Of course there is a lot of good, but there is also a lot of struggle, and OP should know what other people experienced. That's what she said she wanted to hear.

I neither said nor meant to say that I struggled to fit all my kids in. What I said was, unless they were born here or moved as babies then it's almost impossible. For the record, all my children save the oldest 2, were actually born here or moved as toddlers, as we've been here several years. Nonetheless, when there is that 1 older child who struggles to fit in despite having friends, who remembers a better or easier life in chul, it doesn't matter that all your other children are doing great and are happy. There's often that 1 child in every family, usually the oldest, who has adjustment issues to aliyah, and OP should be prepared for that.

I cannot agree that not fitting in is a problem only in my community. I've spoken to Haredi, Dati, Secular and other stripes of Yidden, and in all our communities olim experience the same struggle.

Of course we were treated as chutznikim- that's what we are, and you are too, unless you were born or grew up here from a very young age. No one ever treated you differently because you aren't "a native Israeli?" I've been treated differently by Israelis of all stripes, because of my foreign origin, thick accent in Ivrit and mannerisms. It's not realistic to expect that one will be treated as a native Israeli because they moved to Israel, speak Hebrew and try their best to act Israeli. If you're from chul, you'll always be regarded as someone from chul, and treated a bit differently by a large percentage of the population.

The OP asked for raw info. I'm not saying don't move here, but know what other people experienced so she can make a thought out and prepared decision. If she decides to move, then at least she knows what to watch out and prepare for, instead of it being an unexpected problem.

DrMom

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 10:37 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

I neither said nor meant to say that I struggled to fit all my kids in. What I said was, unless they were born here or moved as babies then it's almost impossible. For the record, all my children save the oldest 2, were actually born here or moved as toddlers, as we've been here several years. Nonetheless, when there is that 1 older child who struggles to fit in despite having friends, who remembers a better or easier life in chul, it doesn't matter that all your other children are doing great and are happy. There's often that 1 child in every family, usually the oldest, who has adjustment issues to aliyah, and OP should be prepared for that.

I cannot agree that not fitting in is a problem only in my community. I've spoken to Haredi, Dati, Secular and other stripes of Yidden, and in all our communities olim experience the same struggle.

I cannot deny your own experience, but I can firmly say that this is not the experience of most people I know. Especially if their kids moved at a young age (and that age is much older than what I would consider "babies").

I think a lot also has to do with the parents' attitudes, and with the specific community they happen to join. Good research and a pilot trip are essential for finding the right community fit.

[I have heard from many women on these boards that fitting in is more difficult if you are Yeshivish and move to a charedi community in E"Y, but I think there are some very community-specific issues associated with this sort of transition.]

BadTichelDay

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 10:41 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

I cannot agree that not fitting in is a problem only in my community. I've spoken to Haredi, Dati, Secular and other stripes of Yidden, and in all our communities olim experience the same struggle.

Of course we were treated as chutznikim- that's what we are, and you are too, unless you were born or grew up here from a very young age. No one ever treated you differently because you aren't "a native Israeli?" I've been treated differently by Israelis of all stripes, because of my foreign origin, thick accent in Ivrit and mannerisms. It's not realistic to expect that one will be treated as a native Israeli because they moved to Israel, speak Hebrew and try their best to act Israeli. If you're from chul, you'll always be regarded as someone from chul, and treated a bit differently by a large percentage of the population.

Regarding being treated as chutznikim - I've lived in Israel for more than ten years and speak Hebrew with an accent (not English). So people realize I wasn't born here as soon as I open my mouth. So what? I don't feel treated badly because of it. If anything, people are being helpful. Israel is an immigrant society. Lots of people I know have bad accents. About 25% of people here are first generation olim, according to statistics I've seen. A lot of the "sabras" are second or third generation. Not exactly ancient either - their parents or grandparents were olim.
I've never felt discriminated against because I'm an olah.
Some people push in front of you in the line or cut you off in traffic because that's what they do, to everyone. Also to other sabras. It's the Middle East. I'm not taking that personal. Yesterday at the gas station a bus driver yelled at me. I yelled back. Never mind the accent. He understood me perfectly well. I do suspect they cheat me with car repairs at the garage. But native Israelis think that as well.

Will I ever be a sabra? No. Not in 120 years. Am I a working, productive and accepted member of Israeli society? Yes.
In my job, I'm definitely part of the system. People who were my customers 10 years ago still remember me fondly (they told our neighbors and dh). No sabra-ness needed. Be proudly "you". People will accept it.
My children were all born here - so I can't comment on them. They are little sabras.

amother

Gray

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 11:00 am

DrMom wrote:

I'm not Yeshivish, but we are could you say modern Haredi, and send to modern Haredi schools (mostly working fathers, a mix of white and other colour shirts, longer sheitels, most families allow some videos, etc.). I do agree though that Yeshivish communities differ substantially from the US, and that makes fitting in a lot harder for children in that community. Then again I have friends from circles outside of my own, and we've all had our share, some less and some more, of at least 1 child struggling socially here, so I can't blame one community over another.

You're right that a lot has to do with the parents attitude. Then again, some kids are just smart, and they realise that despite towing the party line, their parents don't really buy into every new social rule or opinion they're expected to abide by as part of their community. Those kids sense the hypocrisyof it all, and it makes them question Yiddishkeit. It's those kids you need to watch out for, not necessarily your average go along to get along kid.

banana123

Tue, Jan 28 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

How does this have to do with living in Israel specifically? Your second paragraph applies just as much in the US, France, Britain, and Australia as it does in Israel.