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-> Coronavirus Health Questions
DrMom
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 Sun, May 10 2020, 2:29 pm
No idea what the rules are wherever you are, but why are you hesitating to go outside?
I don't know of any place in the world today where going outside is not allowed -- except certain parts of India. Namaste?
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cnc
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:30 pm
Public transportation is open for essential workers to get to work .
Flights are open for people that that need them for emergencies.
Liquor stores are open so alcoholics don’t go into withdrawal and end up in the hospital and overwhelm the healthcare system taking away medical care from covid or other emergency patients.
It’s impossible to completely close everything down . It would have terrible repercussions.
However just because certain things are open out of necessity, doesn’t mean that we should all be taking advantage of them. Please let’s use common sense and act responsibly.
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southernbubby
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:38 pm
There are various levels of risk. I would think that going to the dentist is very risky but sometimes people have such decay that they don't have a choice.
Getting together outdoors at 10 feet away may be safer than getting together indoors at 10 feet and wearing masks may make it safer in either situation and of course bathrooms must be sprayed or disinfected after each use. Obviously that is not as safe as locking everyone in their homes but it would be sad to do that for years on end. Hopefully a vaccine will change the picture.
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giselle
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:41 pm
Why can’t you visit them and sit outside while keeping a distance?
Without getting into everything else you mentioned, I think one thing most agree on is that the elderly should definitely continue to remain cautious for a long time.
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amother
OP
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:44 pm
Visiting our grandparents is just an example. I guess my title should be why are we doing things halfways. I may use my common sense, but plenty of people are taking advantage. If public places are running, there is no way we will ever be done with this. And thats why I feel like giving up even trying.
Lets be honest, people that are going off to Florida and other places, are MOSTLY not the elderly.
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amother
Royalblue
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:45 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | My point is, how are we protecting ourselves if the entire state is not enforcing it?
With the above mentioned, open flights and public transp, it is not called a quarantine. |
You are correct. We are not in quarantine. Why did you think we were? We are ‘on pause’
I for one am an essential worker. I take the subway daily to/from my work at the hospital. But if I had grandparents, I wouldn’t go see them.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:54 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | They want us to come. They are over with the virus, and are crazy lonely. (Its a grandparent from each side, so they are basically both alone)
And 20 ft.?? Why can't we go and stay 6 ft away? |
If they are cognizant and understand the risk, and you are cognizant and understand the risk, I'm not sure what would prevent you from going. We are coming quickly to a point where people, including the elderly, are going to have to become responsible for their own risk assessments. The best the government can do is give them the information and let them make their own choices. There is already blowback in Europe against leaders who have tried to mandate a quarantine of elderly people because guess what? It's unrealistic to make anyone, even those at high risk, isolate for years on end.
There is very little concrete evidence that a blockbuster drug or vaccine is imminent. Trust me, if there was anything, you'd be hearing about it. It's extremely likely that this is just another disease we're going to have to live with. I'm all for isolating the elderly, but I'm not elderly, and I don't think every elderly person should be in forced isolation until a vaccine comes, because that could be never.
Elderly people are perfectly capable of making their own risk assessments and deciding if potentially getting the virus is better or worse than not seeing their grandchildren. What happens if there isn't a vaccine or effective treatment in the next few years? Elderly people will die of other things that aren't related to covid but they would have lost quality months and years enjoying their families.
My DH's grandfather is 92. The other day he was at my in-laws outside when some of the grandkids were playing outside. I said shouldn't you be inside away from the kids? He responded that he is going to die in the next few years regardless, he isn't going to spend the next few months in isolation, and he'd rather have the time watching his grandkids. I respect his choice.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/o.....12002
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amother
Ginger
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Sun, May 10 2020, 2:57 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Visiting our grandparents is just an example. I guess my title should be why are we doing things halfways. I may use my common sense, but plenty of people are taking advantage. If public places are running, there is no way we will ever be done with this. And thats why I feel like giving up even trying.
Lets be honest, people that are going off to Florida and other places, are MOSTLY not the elderly. |
how do you think we'll be done with this?
1) vaccine?
2) cure?
3) herd immunity?
4) virus disappears because everyone is inside?
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:02 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Visiting our grandparents is just an example. I guess my title should be why are we doing things halfways. I may use my common sense, but plenty of people are taking advantage. If public places are running, there is no way we will ever be done with this. And thats why I feel like giving up even trying.
Lets be honest, people that are going off to Florida and other places, are MOSTLY not the elderly. |
You're right. We're getting the worst of both worlds with few of the benefits. We aren't getting the significant decline in cases because people are still going out, but we're also extremely restricted in what we can do.
I agree with you that we should just pick one way or another and go with it. But if we wanted to do full on China-style lockdown, we would have had to do it in the beginning because people aren't going to start doing it now.
That leaves us going with Sweden-style herd immunity. in which case, we should open everything up now with appropriate SD (masks, reduced capacity in restaurants) and encourage young people to go out and get herd immunity. That's the only way this ends.
A virus that spreads this quickly will achieve herd immunity in months, not years.
A vaccine is still very likely years away.
A treatment could be sooner, but it could also not be. I'm not comfortable destroying the economy and killing thousands of people because of the unintended consequences of the lockdown for something that may or may not happen.
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Miri1
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:02 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Youre right. But as long as public transportation is open, a lot of people will be going places, not only those for work.
Lets be honest, how many people are flying off to Florida?
How many people are shopping makeup and clothing in Walmart?
I feel that we are being counterproductive by being open halfways. Either we shut down completely or do like Sweden.
With the contagiousness of this virus, it doesnt make sense to do it halfways. |
Why is it counterproductive?
Of course halfway is better than nothing!
When you minimize exposure, you reduce spread.
Of course we'd love to STOP the spread, but isn't it great that we can at least REDUCE it?
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amother
cornflower
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:08 pm
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You do not have to defend yourself.
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Ora in town
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:09 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | If public transportation is running
If flights to Florida are available
If liquor stores are open
If parks are open
If Walmart is open
If other stores are as well
If de Blasio doesnt walk around with a mask
And so dont many other officials
If we are not really doing this all together.
I am selfish for wanting to visit our elderly grandparents? Or just going outside? |
Visit them: they stay on the balcony, you down outside...
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amother
Purple
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:17 pm
I know people have posted a link to this article before but it nicely illustrates the difference between taking half measures and no measures.
https://www.washingtonpost.com.....ator/
be one of the good dots~
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amother
Purple
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:24 pm
The comparisons to Sweden are not helpful. We have a different culture, different infrastructure and completely different lifestyle then they do.
They were told if they feel sick to stay home. They seem to be complying. We can't, because our sick leave policies disincentivise people to stay home unless they are incapacitated. They don't live in multi-generational homes, we do. Their essential workers are all white, ours, at least in the cities, are multi-racial and covid disproportionately affects black and brown people.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:25 pm
| amother [ Purple ] wrote: | The comparisons to Sweden are not helpful. We have a different culture, different infrastructure and completely different lifestyle then they do.
They were told if they feel sick to stay home. They seem to be complying. We can't, because our sick leave policies disincentivise people to stay home unless they are incapacitated. They don't live in multi-generational homes, we do. Their essential workers are all white, ours, at least in the cities, are multi-racial and covid disproportionately affects black and brown people. |
So what's your suggestion? I'm asking seriously, what do you think we should do given those factors?
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amother
Purple
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:36 pm
| amother [ Orchid ] wrote: | | So what's your suggestion? I'm asking seriously, what do you think we should do given those factors? |
We will have to re-open, the question is how and when. There are some promising treatments, can we wait a few months to run some trials and see if they work? Can we wait till hospitals are properly stocked with PPE? Can we wait till we've trained the thousands of contact tracers we will need to keep up with the spread? Can we let the other countries be the ginea pigs to see which techniques for reopening work and which don't? Hong Kong has shown us that nightclubs should probaby stay closed for a while longer. Lets wait a couple of weeks and see the numbers coming out of Israel and try and gauge the impact of opening schools. Lets have an intelligent, data-driven approach.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:45 pm
| amother [ Purple ] wrote: | | We will have to re-open, the question is how and when. There are some promising treatments, can we wait a few months to run some trials and see if they work? Can we wait till hospitals are properly stocked with PPE? Can we wait till we've trained the thousands of contact tracers we will need to keep up with the spread? Can we let the other countries be the ginea pigs to see which techniques for reopening work and which don't? Hong Kong has shown us that nightclubs should probaby stay closed for a while longer. Lets wait a couple of weeks and see the numbers coming out of Israel and try and gauge the impact of opening schools. Lets have an intelligent, data-driven approach. |
Given that we're already at 14% unemployment after 8 weeks I would say no, the vast majority of Americans cannot and will not wait a few more months. You're already seeing the populace getting restless, even in states that had a significant problem, like the overcrowding in pars in NY. Hospitals are half-empty. Englewood hospital, at the center of the Bergen County outbreak, sent out a video begging people to come in. It was actually kind of sad because they must be absolutely hemorrhaging money. They kept panning over empty waiting rooms. I highly doubt they would be sending out that video if they thought they might not have enough PPE.
Other countries and states are already being guinea pigs. Georgia reported its lowest number of covid patients in hospital in a month and they've been open for 16 days.
Why should we wait a couple more weeks? There's literally no evidence backing that up. The only thing SDing does is not overwhelm the hospitals. I can't think of better evidence of that being accomplished then Cuomo sending back the Comfort and the Javits center treated a total of 1,000 patients over the entire course of the epidemic, with a 2,500 bed capacity. Even if those 1,000 patients had all come at the same time, they would have been at half capacity.
I swear if one more person says we're using a data-driven approach, I'll scream. Nothing we've done has been data-driven. Data-driven would have been to shut down NY and NJ and restrict all travel from those areas. Cuomo had a hissy fit when other states wanted to quarantine NYers. Data would have been saying yeah we probably don't need 40,000 vents because anyone with half a brain could see that NY wouldn't need that. Instead we got Cuomo yelling for an hour everyday about how people we're going to die because they didn't have enough vents. What did we use, 5,000? Maybe? Data driven would have been to protect the nursing homes and test every nursing home worker every day. I think he said he was going to start doing that, what today? Nothing we've done has been data-driven, it has instead been absolutely political.
So if you can afford to sit and wait at home for a few months to see if treatments MIGHT work, go for it. No one is going to force you to go outside. But don't condemn the rest of us to do the same.
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amother
Chocolate
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Sun, May 10 2020, 3:56 pm
Just because others are being irresponsible doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.
Apparently 1 out of every 77 residents of NYC aged 75 and over has passed away due to Covid. That is a very high number.
There is a great deal not known about this disease and they find out new things every day. They thought that children were safe and apparently they are far from safe.
The thing that is different about this disease is that you not only endanger yourself when you go out, fail to wear a mask, or act irresponsibly, you are potentially harming many others. We have all virtually become walking armed weapons.
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amother
Purple
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Sun, May 10 2020, 4:06 pm
Orchid - totally agree, we are not using a data-driven approach, but we should be. In our NYC hospital we do not have the correct PPE and not enough of what we do have (like the old joke, the food is terrible and the portions are too small). Maybe Englewood can send some our way.
This is really a horrible situation. If I were a politician I might advocate for opening up too because the economic cost of continued closure outweighs the economic cost of the lives potentially lost due to covid. What is clear from the letter from the Passaic rabbonim is that we use a different set of priorities to decide when and how to resume our lives. Is it terrible that people are struggling financially? Of course! Is it wretched that people are struggling emotionally? Of course! The financial, emotional and every other kind of suffering have to be taken into account. Maybe were you are from the shikul is different and opening makes sense. We were are though, the answer, from daas torah at least, is clear. It is too early to reopen in the way being advocated by the government.
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amother
Peach
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Sun, May 10 2020, 4:26 pm
What bothers me is that people are not wearing masks. I went out today to take care of something. There were people out, not nearly as many that would normally be on a sunny Sunday. A handful were wearing masks.
You want to go out? Fine, but wear the mask
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