split: another masks argument

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Split: another masks argument

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SixOfWands

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:25 am

CiCi wrote:

The flu is here to stay. Whether you you believe covid-19 is here to stay like I do, or whether you don't believe or you don't know, there are are still other infectious viruses around that can potentially kill people and they will always be around. Its ridiculous to think that people will and should go around with masks forever trying to prevent others from getting our viruses. IMO this attitude comes from thinking we can control teva.

I know I'm going to get bashed for this statement, but I think people walking in the street with a mask today in places like NY or other areas where the pandemic has mostly passed, are sheep. Yes, covid-19 will likely return in a second wave according to health experts, but that does not mean that masks need to be worn continuously.

What makes me chuckle is that would Coumo and Bozo say that we don't need to SD anymore, the sheep would drop all the SDing. But they are not saying that at the moment while providing full support of the protesters who potentially could've transferred the coronavirus, going so far as to providing assistance and facilities for these people to mingle while at the same time and at the current time, shamelessly still keeping the SD rules in effect and enforcing it for people whoa are not out rioting and looting. What a double standard! Its mind-boggling that people still listen to these liberal clowns.

What I find most hypocritical is that while people on this forum most strongly condemn frum people who are not wearing masks, there was very weak, and currently none, condemnation of protesters and rioters when these people, in the thousands, violated and are continuing to violate state SD laws. And all these Jewish hockers and zetzers of their own people are mum about this. I find the hypocrisy astounding.

Covid is believed to be contagious in asymptomatic people, including people who will get symptoms, but have not yet. See, eg, https://www.medpagetoday.com/I.....87168). Flu, OTOH, is primarily contagious AFTER symptoms, although in some cases it may be contagious one day before symptoms. There is very little asymptomatic transmission. See, eg, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....6474/ So your analogy is nonsensical. There's no reason for asymptomatic people to wear masks to prevent the spread of flu. I would certainly expect people with flu to isolate, just as I expect people with covid to do so.

I don't take medical advice from politicians. I take it from doctors, those who have studied the disease and understand how it spreads. There is no liberal medicine and conservative medicine. There's only medicine. Ignoring it because the person repeating the advice is a liberal doesn't make me a sheep; I'll leave it to your imagination what I think ignoring medical advice based on politics makes people.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:27 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Unfortunately, studies are suggesting that people who had antibodies 3 months ago no longer have them.

This is obviously very bad news.

But given the inaccuracies of the antibody testing, and this new information, having had an antibody test is pretty worthless.

There is also the possibility of T cell immunity but we don't have a test for this. The best cure is preventing it.

SixOfWands

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:27 am

Ora in town wrote:

If you knew you had it, it would be OK not to wear a mask.

But "after me the flood" (=I don't care about others) is not an argument.

Given recent studies indicating that people who had antibodies 3 months ago no longer have them now, that's not necessarily the case.

amother

Bronze

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:28 am

I sure everyone so upset at poor Op was also so angry and vociferous at the protesters and at some politicians and health workers who came out in support of the protesting crowds.
Because they must all be "selfish Grandma Killers" too chas v shalom!

freilich

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:35 am

#Happymom wrote:

Honestly, I would never want other people's deaths or permanent lung damage to be held against me after 120. I think it's halacha that if you go out without a mask, you're a mazik

That’s a very strong statement. Within the communities that have stopped wearing masks, herd immunity has been achieved. Most of the people already had it, and therefore are at minimal risk to get it again, and to infect others.

amother

Oak

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 11:54 am

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

Are you suggesting we must continue to have anxiety about it?

And yes, we are ALL, by nature, selfish. OP is being honest. Whoever tries to convince me they wear it out of concern for the stranger on the street, is not being honest.

In other countries they also go barefoot or topless. And therefore???

Why do anxiety and responsible behavior have to be correlated? I put on a seatbelt in a car, but I don't hyperventilate the whole time that I'm about to die. One should always hope for the best and plan for the worst, when the cost benefit analysis justifies it.

I don't know if you never do anything that isn't selfish, but please don't accuse the entirety of humanity of being heartless exclusively self serving creatures. Believe it or not, there do exist people that care about the welfare of others. Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise to assuage your conscience for being like that. That is pure projecting and gaslighting. There are plenty of people that are in an almost zero risk category as far as COVID-19 is concerned, that wear masks and practice social distancing purely out of concern for the welfare of others.

I give you a brachah that you too should attain that quality.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 12:27 pm

Miri1 wrote:

How would you know?
A negative test today means only that you are negative today.

Obviously I'm talking about people who've had it already and/or test positive for antibodies. Why would I wear a mask if I'm sure I'm not infectious? Even the few cases of people who've had it twice do not carry a contagious viral load the second time they're infected.

Give me one good reason why I should wear a mask under these circumstances...

#BestBubby

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 12:32 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I have read other articles that like the FLU-VIRUS, the CORONA-VIRUS is most contagious after symptoms and it is unlikely that asymptomatic people are transmitting the coronavirus.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 12:38 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Given recent studies indicating that people who had antibodies 3 months ago no longer have them now, that's not necessarily the case.

What do antibodies have to do with anything? They're no guarantee. But people who've had it and then tested positive are no longer in danger of spreading the virus. It's as simple as that.

https://fortune.com/2020/05/19.....ious/

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 2:23 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Store employees can't ask each person for a health history and must assume that anyone can be e carrier.

amother

Powderblue

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 2:37 pm

When everyone wears a mask, it becomes the normal thing for people to wear masks. Once many/most people stop, it becomes that much harder for those who continue . . . and many people still do need to protect themselves (and others) . . .

CiCi

Fri, Jun 26 2020, 6:45 pm

A few people have responded earlier to my comment saying that wearing masks means doing hishtadlus. I am responding here to all of these comments.

I totally agree, and I believe that most people who currently don't wear masks agree as well, that wearing masks is part of doing our required hishtadlus. Where people who currently don't wear masks, and those who do, disagree, is whether there is reason at this point still to wear a mask. Masks and social distancing was for flattening the curve which has not only been flattened in NY and most other areas in the US where frum Jews live, but the virus has receded for now. No, it has not totally gone away and likely will return but that does not mean that we can wear masks indefinitely and forever. At this point no one knows if the virus will ever disappear or not so those of us who refuse or cannot wear a mask indefinitely wont do so only if an actual pandemic will occur again (which hopefully it never will...)

In addition, I would not be surprised if in a few years studies come out proving that the long term inhalation of carbon dioxide is detrimental to our health. It is waste from the body and we are exhaling it for a reason!

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Jun 27 2020, 4:01 pm

CiCi wrote:

CiCi, about the carbon dioxide being unhealthy, here are a few links that debunk that theory:
https://www.bbc.com/news/53108405
https://www.healthline.com/hea.....oning

Also, about what I bolded, you do know that not only Jews have gotten covid and that non Jews also live in NY. Its not only about the Jewish people!!!!

amother

Bronze

Sat, Jun 27 2020, 11:12 pm

Right! But as we are a forum of frum jewish women it makes sense that is our focus.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 1:29 am

southernbubby wrote:

Store employees can't ask each person for a health history and must assume that anyone can be e carrier.

We’re not discussing if store employees can do this but if you have a responsibility to wear one if you’re not contagious. Why should someone suffocate for no reason?

amother

Lemon

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 1:52 am

Here in Boro park there are very few people wearing Masks. Shuls are packed, weddings are happening with loads of people invited for dancing and sheva bruchos, bar mitzvahs, etc.
Schools were in session and now most kids have some sort of camp or day camp plans.
It seems like we are moving on in my neighborhood. I do believe though that the elderly and high risk population should stay home a little longer. But why should the rest of us?!

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 8:21 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Should we be moving on to this degree? Should we be dancing holding hands and not onto ropes that are frequently changed? I'm very concerned.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 8:42 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Should we be moving on to this degree? Should we be dancing holding hands and not onto ropes that are frequently changed? I'm very concerned.

Well it’s been going on since lag baomer and shocking the curve is still going down. It’s showing it’s mostly bogus most claims by now and it’s all turned political. In Boro Park, Willi, Monroe and Monsey there has been regular life the kids have been back to school and cheder and some places even have bussing. Is there corona yes some but the cases are not severe anymore and way less.

Whoever steps into a hospital now will be positive covid. Walk out go to another doctor and you will be negative yet again this is politics!

And regarding the masks they are unhealthy my young daughter and me went shopping in a non Jewish Store we wore masks and guess what we each needed Motrin afterwards for headaches and this has been happening to me.

amother

Babypink

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 10:12 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I always get headaches from shopping. And on hot days if I don't drink enough.

ETA: The point of avoiding large indoor crowds, large simchos, handholding at weddings, et. is to avoid the second wave turning into the unmitigated disaster that Purim turned out to be. We won't have any warning. People will no longer be immune, and infection will spread silently and rapidly.

It makes sense to adjust our lifestyle a bit for the next year or two to avoid that level of tragedy.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Jun 28 2020, 10:16 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I always get headaches from shopping. And on hot days if I don't drink enough.

No I can shop for hours but not with mask it makes me sweaty and nauseas and dizzy.

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