S/o anti vax cheder and shidduchim

amother

Babyblue

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:01 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

With a slightly different approach, Rabbi Yehoshua Neuwirth, a major contemporary Israeli posek rules :2

"One may not obligate any healthy person to receive treatment as a preventive measure. Although one may try to convince the individual, he may do no more. If there was absolute evidence that [an individual] could be a danger to others, such as in spreading infection which could be fatal, then there would be a case for forcing him to have a vaccine, but only if it was certain that the vaccine itself was not dangerous to him."

From Jewish medical ethics.

Against the Torah.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to vaccinate. I just don't want my family to hang out with yours in local schools or shuls. I have that right just like you have the right not to vaccinate.

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 12:58 pm

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

It's not your business and doesn't effect you at all on a day to day basis.You don't actually have that right to deny children of their education or other religious services based on confidential medical records. It's not constitutional at all. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Not a very logical comment.

I'm happy you sleep at night. Good for babyblue! Have me in mind.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 1:58 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I think you're overlooking one critical thing. The right to freedom (in anything) extends as long as you don't step on anyone's toes. Otherwise, you're placing your rights over the other persons.

So, in this situation, you are right that you retain the right not to vaccinate. But once there is an outbreak, the unvaccinated are putting other people at risk. So in order to keep to it that you're not stepping on anyone's toes, the unvaccinated MUST be quarantined for the specific amount of time.

If you want to argue that your rights are being trampled by being forced to vaccinated - remember, that you are not being forced. Being unvaccinated comes hand in hand with going into quarantine when the dept of health designates a quarantine. You can't pick one part of it and drop the other. You choose something, you choose the package that comes with it.

So you, as the mother, are making the decision. You know beforehand that you may need to keep your children home at certain times. So there is no rishus on any schools or chedarim. They are just protecting the entire student body, - as they should. If you think there's rishus involved in any way, maybe look at your own choices for them? If you do believe you are doing right by them, then why are you taking issue with what those choices require? Why do you believe the rest of the world is required to take upon themselves the burden of your choices?

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 2:21 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Lawngreen, At the start of 2020 there wasn't an outbreak but all those children didn't have a school.
No one is saying that the kids should be in school when there's an outbreak. These kids can be in public schools but not Jewish that really tells me this is not about logic, and important policies.

ETA none of my children are unvaccinated.

That was still ongoing because of the consequences of what happened during the outbreak. If the unvaccinated refused to follow protocols, and refused to quarantine when needed, the schools became wary about dealing with such situations in the future. No one wants a repeat situation. If one makes themselves difficult to deal with, they need to deal with the fallout.

If people would be willing to live with their choices, then all these false claims would be non-existent. If the unvaccinated would quarantine when needed, then the schools wouldn't be making issues about accepting them. If the unvaccinated refuse to quarantine and follow guidelines, then schools make issues about accepting them. What's so hard to understand?

amother

Emerald

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 2:31 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

If people would be willing to live with their choices, then all these false claims would be non-existent. If the unvaccinated would quarantine when needed, then the schools wouldn't be making issues about accepting them. If the unvaccinated refuse to quarantine and follow guidelines, then schools make issues about accepting them. What's so hard to understand?

This. 100%.

Trust is huge. HUGE. And in my kids' school, none of the unvaxxed kids had any issue restarting school. Because 1) their parents were indispensable. And 2) they KEPT the quarantine. There were students who were out of school for a solid month due to exposure. They did what had to be done.

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 2:48 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I think that the statement about kids still going to school when they were told not to is hardly true. Children were kicked out prematurely last year and they were not acting upon the advice of the health department so yes parents protested.

You think that this is justified punishment for those parents "acting out"? I really don't. I fail to see any justice happening. Just a lot of apathy and gloating women saying without any busha "At last they get what they deserve hahaha!"

I really didn't see a lot of logic last year at all just a ton of fear mongering on both ends. This was not my fight until I saw a girl that had a lot of energy and passion just turn to stone. She can't daven, can't think of others, can't have fun again... My efforts this past school year have been futile for these children compared to how existing administrations could have dealt with it.

I will continue to help these children and hopefully this school year will be a lot better than last. My dream though is to not have to help them. I'm just waiting for justice.

newcomer

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 3:02 pm

Waiting for justice...what does that even mean? Are you willing to explain that statement?

Plus, the Jewish schools will be extra strict about vaxxing, they need to be now if they don't want to be forced to go virtual in the midst of this pandemic. There is going to be a lot of oversight. And, as I've said before, there will be laws passed about schools. So, those parents can get on board or work out a better homeschooling system for now, and the future.

amother

Emerald

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 3:03 pm

Ruby. Those schools aren't required to follow the health dept. They're private schools. They get to make their own rules.

Find a school that has rules you're willing to follow. Or make your own school. Stop insisting that schools need to run according to what YOU feel is right. Others poured their heart and soul into building those schools. They did what they could to accommodate. Parents decided to protest their decisions, they have to live with the fallout.

It's the same as having internet or tv in the home. For some people those electronics are a lifesaver. But if the school feels that exposure will negatively impact other kids, they have the right to refuse entry.

Every parent has choices. They can move to an area with a school that will accept their unvaxxed child. They can create a homeschooling co-op. They don't have the right to insist that a school someone else created should "follow the health department." That's not up to them.

Antivaxxers aren't victims. They're people with free will who make choices and then need to live with the consequences. Same like everyone else.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 3:07 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I personally know that to be true, I know quite a few who did just that. No child was kicked our prematurely before the outbreak. It was only when the outbreak occurred that the schools took action.

Technically, the schools are not allowed to accept these children, unless they have a medical exemption. And its part of the DOH protocols, that any unvaccinated child who does attend schools should be quarantined. The mandated 'advice' is already there. So there was no premature action - it is how the schools are expected to act.

If you consider quarantining children as a punishment for parents, then there is no point in a discussion. The parents know that quarantine is part of the package that comes with not vaccinating. They knew it may happen some time down the road. They made their choice nonetheless with full disclosure. All they are doing, according to them, is keeping their children safe. If you want to call that a punishment, then Banging head

.

As for that girl who 'turned to stone' - The sole responsibility of that is the parents. If a quarantine is destroying the girl, then perhaps vaccination is the better option for her? It's up to the parents to weigh the pros and cons and make the right decision. The world cannot make up for the consequences of parents' decisions.

Please continue to daven for the welfare of such children. The yeshua may just come in the form of changing the parents' minds.

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 3:15 pm

I agree emerald. They can do whatever they want a hundred percent. Only that's not a very Jewish value at all. There are a ton of Jewish sources on the responsibility that lies on the community for chinuch.

So while I will agree with you on the fact that schools can do whatever they want. The administration that charged themselves with the responsibility for the chinuch of their community really failed this time. Maybe Halacha might even forbid their decisions.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 31 2020, 3:20 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

To protect the health of our children (and ourselves) is a Jewish value. And the Jewish community IS offering all of the resources and chinuch to these children. It is the parents who are opting out of it by means of their personal choices.

It all comes down to choices and consequences. The arguments that you put forth all run along the line of standing up for the parents choices, but ignoring the consequences. If you really want to help these parents, then perhaps try to find solutions that address the consequences too.