S/O if for no other reason

naomi2

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 6:51 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

Agree with much you are saying Naomi while at the same time I would not go to a big indoor wedding or do many of the other things I consider too risky for me.

Yes it's called being informed and making the best choices by yourself for yourself.

amother

Khaki

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 6:56 pm

Laiya wrote:

Is it? That's what it was back in the early days of March and April,

Back in March and April, the case fatality rate was 16% for New Jersey and 10% for New York state...

This might be due to the fact that tests were not widely availabe and cases might have been vastly underreported.

In the new outbreak in summer in Texas, California, Florida, with more testing, a higher proportion of registered cases, the case fatality rate is 2-3%

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 7:14 pm

There is an estimate that the national coronavirus death toll will double by December but I am not sure where the numbers came from or what is supposed to cause it to happen. In Latin America, nobody cares and they are apparently dropping like flies.

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 7:41 pm

People in brooklyn are not doing mandatory testing. Just the opposite. Many many people are feeling really sick. Very few are testing because they don't want their kids to have to stay home. You may not like the govt telling you what to do, but this is still a real sickness with many people seriously ill

amother

Navy

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 7:59 pm

It’s still real and it’s still dangerous.
I’m pretty sure the strain going around now isn’t as strong as the one that went around a few months ago and many ppl who are testing positive now are feeling fine a few days later. That isn’t everyone though...
My husband was sick for a few days with it and is completely okay. I was sick before him and still sick, I’m bed, weak as anything and barely functioning. Blame it on me being pregnant, but it’s a crazy virus and ppl should still be careful. (We were being careful but we’re exposed to a Close family member who wasn’t as careful)

wiki

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 11:01 pm

Deaths in America in 2020 are up 14 percent over last year. And that's with all that we've done collectively to try to minimize infections.

In my OP on the thread from which this spun off, I argued that even if you don't think restrictions are called for on public health grounds, please at least consider the Chillul Hashem and the school closures.

But the public health grounds are reasonable too.

Look, I hear what you're saying that all of life requires weighing costs and benefits, and we do this even when we calculate things that risk human lives, all the time. Like, if we're not okay with 30 mph speed limits because of the pedestrian fatalities, we'll limit the speed limit to 25 mph. Do some pedestrians still die? Yes. But we balance the need for public safety with the need for the cars to move somewhere.

Here's the thing. How many people do you know have died in car crashes this year? I don't know any. How many do you know have died of Covid?

I'm not advocating for total lockdown, and in fact I am desperate to keep the schools open. The main thing that is needed to keep the virus at bay is masking when in groups indoors.

It will save lots of lives. And it's a lot less of a burden than if someone were to, say, ban all vehicular traffic because of pedestrian fatalities.

aliavi

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 11:30 pm

naomi2 wrote:

Again, no facts here. We don't shut down a country and take away people freedoms because we might catch an illness. It's just not how the country was founded. This is not smallpox people

Please outline your plan as to when you think a reaction is appropriate and not control. I’m sincerely interested in feedback on when people think a reaction is warranted. Smallpox started out as “not smallpox”.

amother

Tan

Wed, Sep 23 2020, 11:31 pm

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

What testing is mandatory?

fleetwood

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 6:34 am

Just saw a news report, videos of bakeries and clothing stores in boro park, Brooklyn with everyone mask less. That's what's going to get the schools shut down ,not an uptick. So just keep on doing what you're doing and be sure to cry anti-semitism when the yeshivas get shut down.

ora_43

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 6:46 am

naomi2 wrote:

Talk to Drs that work in hospitals, do some research, and Change my mind.

I like that you realize that research would change your mind. Good start.

Another good start would be to recognize the vast gray area between diseases like the black plague and smallpox, and seasonal flu.

Coronavirus is something like 20 times less fatal than smallpox. But it's also something like 20 times more fatal than the seasonal flu - and that's assuming the current CDC death rate is an overestimate. The CDC currently has it as 30-40 times more deadly than flu.

Last edited by ora_43 on Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

imasinger

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 7:02 am

For all that it's been stalking for more than 6 months, the novel coronavirus is still novel. New.

We're still learning about the damage it causes.

In the past, it drove me crazy when there would be a terrorist attack in Israel that would "only" outright kill a few people, but permanently maim many more, and the headlines would say, "Attack kills 2", and then people would call any response disproportionate.

Similar here. The immediate death rate is only part of the picture. There is evidence of long term damage in lots of people who didn't die immediately.

Being alive but in continued pain, or becoming physically disabled with heart or breathing problems is nothing trivial, yet those numbers aren't being tracked AFAIK. Yet there's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence about these lasting effects.

And there are so many kinds of masks out there, and solutions for discomfort.

When we were between waves, I could kind of understand people thinking the Big 4 (wear a mask around others, keep a distance, don't put too many people in the same space, wash hands frequently) weren't necessary. But that's not the case any more.

Now that the numbers are going up, it's very hard to understand people refusing to help others by doing these things, especially when a rise in numbers could risk shutdowns again, and nobody wants that.

Whether the sickness leads to 1% death, or 20% death. Whether 5% permanent damage but not death, or a different number.

How much more persuasion is needed?!

nchr

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 7:32 am

The issue here is that both sides of the equation are being unreasonable. Either it's "just the flu no biggie everyone shoukd get it don't test and infect whoeveer whenever because ppl just died due to NY hospitals being irresponsible" or "COVID19 is the worst virus everyone must be locked up there is a death rate of 2-3% and major longterm effects only go outside to protest".

In reality it is inbetween. The fatality is probably less than 1%. For most people the virus is not a big deal. Most cases recover without the need for therapies or longterm damage. It is very dangerous for certain portions of the population. It is not comparable to the flu especially if you account for the longterm complications in some ppl. Wearing masks is not a lockdown and is not controlling you. Schools should be open but parents also need to be responsible and not send children if there is a positive in their home etc. because although covid19 is not generally a concern for children randomly spreading the virus means it will get to at risk ppl.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 7:36 am

Again agree with you Naomi. So frustrating not to get raw unvarnished factual data!
Like there was another thread on transmission under 10. Enough with the manipulating to fit agendas and the paucity of factual information!
Now that we do have evidence of what has worked and not worked to date around the world.
Why cant governments and organizations treat everyone respectfully and put out the facts so we can make best informed decisions!!!

ora_43

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 7:38 am

nchr wrote:

Most people I know are firmly in the middle.

The problem is that you can only take the middle ground if most people follow precautions. If half of the population isn't willing to follow any rules, then "just wear masks and be careful and it will be OK for most people" no longer applies - and then instead of being masks vs no masks, it becomes lockdown vs no lockdown.

nchr

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 7:41 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

What is disrespectful about asking you to wear a mask and not have large public gatherings and stay home if someone is actually sick?