Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:25 pm

nchr wrote:

Kids don't need to be quiet when a teacher is out of class. When kids disrupt class it's the parents lack of chinuch more so than anything else. I don't care what the schools ability to maintain a structured environment is, my child has no excuse to misbehave in a school building, or any building. That's normal not strict or fear.

How come the contrast, while she is there- pin drop silence- she leaves for a minute, there's upheaval, what happened in that moment? The strict security guard is not there.
What happened when communism collapsed? Chaos. People didn't know how to eat freedom?

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:28 pm

nchr wrote:

you didn't consider peer pressure. the most obedient child in the world may misbehave when the entire class is doing so. kids have an uncanny ability to sense when a teacher is weak or insecure and will take advantage of that situation. then it becomes a kind of mob mentality in which individuals do things they would never do on their own. even the teacher's pet can get caught up in this sort of thing.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:30 pm

I will keep posting this oldie but goodie because I love it so much and it sums up my philosophy so perfectly.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
Which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
But seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
As living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
And He bends you with His might
That His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
So He loves also the bow that is stable.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:35 pm

Who is a bigger tzadik your kid that listened when you told him " please bring mommy a cup of water" or the kid that thought on their own that mommy must be thirsty now, because she came from hot street, so let me schnell bring her a cup of water, even before she asks me.
Of course, we want this rather.
That is the chinuch we aim for, kids should be able to think on their own, make right choices, want to do for parents as their own respect, not from fear, or because they just followed instructions, this will take them further.
Torah say בחרת בחיים. Choose life. How can we choose if we weren't given the choices.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:40 pm

keym wrote:

Why is it the parents "fault" so much as the kids lack of ability to control himself.

In general, I get really turned off when parents take any credit for a well behaved or "well turned out" child.
The credit belongs to the child. And ultimately the "blame" belongs to the child also.

On top of that what's with expecting children to already have been "mechanech'ed?" They're kids! Chinuch is a process not a slam dam accomplishment by the time the kid is 7 years old.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:44 pm

We teach, guide children so they can choose right over wrong on their own.

When my kids fight, ( if it's not dangerous and there isn't an imbalance of power) I tell them, I am not getting involved, you two are smart sibs who love each others, and you will come up with a solution on your own to be able to compromise, and make sure both parties are happy and they do. Whether taking turns, or whatever.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:56 pm

When a kid speaks with chutzpah, do we slap him? He doesn't even know right way to express himself.
Isn't there rather a way to teach kids the right way to speak instead of punishing him for the abrasive language.
I told my child, try to think of a nicer way to say that, if he doesn't know we can brainstorm together. Or you model on your own right after that, right way to say it.
If a kid has a temper tantrum and starts throwing things & yelling. We have to stop behavior yes, but why is child acting that way? What is bothering him, that he acts that way?
A younger child, I will tell him, You cannot speak to mommy this way. If you are hungry, go eat, thirsty go drink, need bathroom, go. You need to calm down, go soothe yourself & then once you are calm, you can come back to mommy & we can have a conversation.

Or: Mommy loves you & wants to hear what you have to say, but I am sorry that my ears cannot listen to distespectful words, go into your room, to think how to talk nicely, and then I will be more than glad to listen to what you have to say.

ChassidishMommy

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:29 pm

As shomrei mitzvos, we have a positive commandment to fulfill: V'shinantum Levunechu. We are obligated to teach our children the ways of the Torah, because forefather Avraham made a covenant between Hashem and him that is in effect for his descendants as well. The only way to ensure it's being kept by the next generation is by teaching them.
This is the only purpose of being mechanech our children: to be mekayem the mitzvah. NOT so that they bring us nachas, or so that we may feel accomplished. Nachas is just a side benefit, which may or may not come (but we sure hope it will!). Avraham and Yitzchak had children who chose to follow and children who chose not to.
Our children will eventually become full-fledged members of klal yisrael with their own bechirah. Our only task is to make sure that they come prepared to be a Torah true Jew. We owe this not to ourselves, and not even to our children, but to Hashem.
Practically speaking, the application of this mitzvah is not so different than teaching kids math. We don't expect kids to know math on their own, and we definitely don't punish them for getting it wrong. We teach them, and if they don't get it we explain it again, maybe a bit differently. We do expect them to do the exercise so that it'll become second nature to them, and we may enforce this part by discipline/incentive. Whether or not they choose to use their developed skills in adulthood is up to them, but at least we know we gave them the skills.
Anything we do to our children to enhance our own lives beyond teaching them, has nothing to do with the mitzvah of chinuch and everything to do with control and self-gratification.

Last edited by ChassidishMommy on Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:31 pm

I sometimes use humor.

Kid: ich darf.. ( I need) x.....
I say "please, thank you, a git morgen, a gitten tug, a gitten Purim!"

Kid:
Orders me, Gimme....
I sing Gimme, gimme doesn't get, don't you know your manners yet?

Kid:
Do this....
"If you are king sitting on your throne, then kindly ask your servants....

Kid by supper table, yells ketchup!!
"Oh, who exactly are you speaking to? The ketchup....ok ketchup come fwd!

amother

Lavender

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:35 pm

Unrelated to Jewish chinuch.
Our youth has been indoctrinated with many ideas. Indoctrination is like mind control and the results of that is being seen in our world today.
90% of people do not think. They just babble whatever was put into their heads.
The school system, the college system and the media have been in charge of our minds.
These were deliberately set up by world elitist's to dumb down our generation. The same way these Jewish boys were indoctrinated with stuff back in Russia we have the same thing happening in American for the past 30 years without anyone rebelling.
And those that do are called a danger to society.
(I've discussed this matter with a top professor in one of America's finest universities and it is very sad to see that "they" all know this but we peasants don't)

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:44 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

On top of that what's with expecting children to already have been "mechanech'ed?" They're kids! Chinuch is a process not a slam dam accomplishment by the time the kid is 7 years old.

If behaving in class was not age appropriate, then kids wouldn't be in school. At a certain age, certain behaviors have been met. I don't understand. Just like it's not appropriate for an adult to tantrum or have a pacifier, it's not appropriate for a 9 year old to jump around in class.

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:48 pm

nchr wrote:

maybe not, but a child with hyperactivity, or even just a regular child with only an average endowment of sitzfleish, can still have a hard time with this. Schooling as we do it is really unnatural. children should be in almost perpetual motion, developing their limbs, not sitting for hours at a stretch.

keym

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:50 pm

nchr wrote:

I don't think many behaviors that are expected of kids in school are age appropriate.
However schools still expect 5 year olds to raise their hand before talking, to ask permission before using the bathroom, to sit still and focus for more than 15 minutes at a time.

And I still maintain that even if a child "should" be able to do the behavior, not doing it does not necessarily reflect the parents doing a good or bad job.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:55 pm

If chinuch is only from fear, then when the teens are out of parent's sight, like dorming in a yeshiva, camp, sem, by someone else's home, are they strong enough to defy peer pressure or cave in? Let's say watch a video, sneak out to pizza store, listen to secular music, etc which friends do, offer but they know parents' don't allow. If they are afraid of parents, they they will now do it behind parents' back. If it's something that they took upon themselves because they wanted to, they will be able to defy better.

Usually stricter homes, where nothing is allowed, kids rather do stuff when parents don't look.

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 3:59 pm

Mothers wrote:

I think an additional factor is not allowing children to make enough choices. Studies show (for example) that children who are in highly structured pre-school programs, where they are continually instructed where to go, what to do (sit, stand, look at this etc.) don’t develop the independent executive functioning skills that developed through planning and decision-making. They don’t get to see the consequences of their choices and/or actions, and they don’t get to learn from their successes and/or errors.

Regimenting actions and restricting choices is very limiting. This is the case in the moral realm - same as any other.

Obviously, there are some errors, which can be fatal (either physically or spiritually) and we must do all we can to protect children from those - but there are other errors, which are neutral and/or minor, which can provide valuable learning experiences. Ein chacham k’bar nisayon. We all learn best from experience. Limiting children’s choices and experiences limits their eventual development as independent, thinking adults, who can make mature, rational decisions and take responsibility for their choices.

This, absolutely. As parents, we want to protect our children, but we can't wrap them up in cotton wool like our crystal stemware if we want them to become strong and capable adults. an immune system needs to be challenged to develop normally and so does a person. It's not pleasant or easy to watch our children make painful mistakes, but it's a necessary part of their development.

(And, she said with a wicked gleam in her eye, when you let them make their own choices, it's on their heads if things don't work out. If you direct their every move, YOU are to blame--and they will.)

Mama Bear

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:04 pm

nchr wrote:

it is extremely appropriate for a 9 year old to jump around in class when the teacher is not there. Children are not robots, and they have a healthy dose of energy that needs to be unleashed somehow, somehwere, at some point.

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:07 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

I don't love the idea of jumping around in general, but in my comment I was referring to when in class with a teacher who is not strict, as another poster pointed out she believes children will misbehave for lenient teachers. I do not think they will, unless something is developmentally wrong or they have an underlying condition, which is ok. Otherwise, for a typical kid, misbehavior is a reflection of the parents IMO.

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:10 pm

nchr wrote:

I’m stuck on the bolded. Are they supposed to sit on the couch with seat belts? Speaking of belts, I hope- never mind!