Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 2:59 pm

nchr wrote:

If you are going into someone else's home and you are intentionally bothering or disrespecting them, then something is very very wrong. I cannot even believe there are people who think that intentionally dressing in a way that will irritate your parent in said parents home is acceptable. What you should in your own home or in the street may be up for discussion (so I'll say continue to respect in the street, but you may say no do what you need to do) but the idea of disrespecting someone in their own home is just absurd. If this opinion is mainstream it is no wonder there are serious behavioral problems in today's youth.

Ironically (and I'm sorry to have to be the one to say this), the behavior problem in today's youth is because they are expected (coerced?) to show meaningless repressive "respect" to such parents and grandparents.

allthingsblue

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:01 pm

nchr wrote:

Honestly, your mother shouldn't allow you in her home if you intentionally wear items to irritate her (I mean how difficult is it to just not do this in someone else's home - don't you wear a tichel in shul even if that is not your regular minhag out of respect for the rules) or that she finds offensive, although then that leads to bigger issues like why are you not there, what the family thinks, what other kids think, what will happen to you in the future, etc. I also forget to mention how that can impact the chinuch of other children in the house. For example, let's say I drink Coke and my mother doesn't. It is EXTREMELY disrespectful of me, even in my own home, to drink it in front of my unmarried siblings. If they happen to walk in unexpectedly and see it on the table, that's another story. Although, I would personally not risk bringing it into my home under those circumstances, but I could hear the argument as to why it is okay.

If the mother's goal is to raise puppets who kowtow to her every rule, then correct, she should not allow her child to her home (and the child probably won't want to be there). If her goal is to have a relationship with her kids, she should get over herself and realize there are 70 faces to Torah, and that no one is perfect, and that judging people is for Hashem to do.

nchr

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:03 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

pause

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:05 pm

nchr wrote:

If my mother wouldn't allow me into her home because I wear a color she doesn't like, I say "good riddance" and I wouldn't be too sad about it. Thank goodness my mother wouldn't ban a child of hers from coming into her house with something that she may have a different preference about. Banging head

A tichel in shul is a matter of minhag. I try to be respectful of others' minhagim in their house. So, for example, I won't bring a cake with store-bought ground nuts to my parents' house on Pesach because they don't use store-bought ground nuts. In my own home, I have no problem using it.

Zehava

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:07 pm

nchr wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

And when otd folks are asked why they threw the baby out with the bath water, here is the answer. They never saw the actual baby. All they were raised with was the bath water.

allthingsblue

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:08 pm

nchr wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

Because you need to accept that you have to try, but the results are not in your control.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:16 pm

My parents didn't live their lives for their parents, I didn't live my life for mine, and my children don't live their lives for me. We are given one life to do with as we deem best, and I would never ask or expect my children to pattern themselves on me. I did with my life what I thought best, and now it's my children's turn to live their lives as they think best.

My job as a parent is to bring up my children to the best of my ability and then allow them to think for themselves. If their decisions are different from mine, if they choose a derech different from mine, that is a reflection of their thinking, not an expression of disrespect for me. I want people to accept me for who I am; how can I possibly deny my children the same courtesy?

I wouldn't do anything to deliberately humiliate my parents, but I thank G-d that they couldn't have cared less what color stockings I wore. If I had had a mother who would tell me I have to wear a certain color tights so that she can hold her head up in society, I think I'd have left town so fast I'd have left skid marks on the sidewalk.

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:17 pm

nchr wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

Because a yiddishe neshama that comes down to this world needs to learn how to live like a yid. And the parent is entrusted with the job.

If Torah is about purple shirts or parents' whims, the children see through it. This generation wants Torah, they are truth seekers. If they are given their parents' ego and told it is Torah, they will spit it back in our faces.

To not allow a child in our home- that is ego, the self-righteous yetzer hara. It contradicts the mission Hashem entrusted us with.

amother

Olive

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:23 pm

nchr wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

There's two aspects - halacha and house rules.

I teach my children what is halacha, because that's my job as a Yiddishe mother. I'm not supposed to police and ensure that once they are married they follow the exact same interpretations and derech that I do. But, that in no way means that it was all for naught. Because the goal is to teach them Torah, not to ensure that they keep to my exact minhagim and community norms. We're not trying to create clones, we're just trying to impart a love for Hashem and His Torah. (I'm not saying it's easy if they choose a different path, but that's sometimes part of our avodah as a parent. It's definitely not in the name of Yiddishkeit to reject them if they do so.)

And I have certain house rules that enable me to run the house I like it, though why would I expect my child to run her house in the exact same way?

amother

Ecru

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:25 pm

Nchr, it's not so simple always, as what's the big deal to put on beige tights even if you wear black, just when you go to mom's house or not change levush at all.
What if her husband wants black & your mom wants beige? What do you do then?
What if it's a dil, that wants to follow her mom's way & not her mil way.
Moms & mil should accept their children the way they are, and not freak out what the neighbors will say.
I know a few scenarios which such things backfired.
I know a mil who made her dil wear a white tichel, when she comes to her for shabbos, for fear of the yentishe neighbors. Today that dil doesn't wear a sheitel at all anymore, just her own hair & didn't ask her mil.
I know someone who followed & came to her mil house with beige socks as per order. Well one day she said heck with it, soon my mil will control what underwear I wear. A person that doesn't feel accepted feels rejected & unloved.
I know someone only wore beige to mil, house, simchos. Mil didn't even know that she wears black, till one day she bumped into her on street.
I know a bachur that came to visit bubby on chol hamoad, she commented why isn't he wearing his bekiche ( for fear what neighbors will say) guess what he doesn't go visit bubby anymore, why should he subject himself to critic. Mind you he was in Israel learning all year. She hadn't seem him all year, instead of showing love that she is so thrilled to see him, all she saw was the negative.
Today's youth don't take that garbage.

amother

Ecru

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:30 pm

In other direction as well, mil who didn't let dil cover her sheitel because she herself doesn't cover hers, guess what? Couple of years later, , couple decided on own & she covered anyway. Now this mil has other dils, that started out with plain sheitel & one covers with tichel on sheitel, and one changed over to plain tichel/shpitzel on their own. Why can't people make their own choices, if they're ovdei Hashem.

amother

Lime

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:39 pm

My parents were always all about respect. Everything we did was measured by how others would perceive them. Now as an adult I know I grew up in a abusive home and that was just one of the many ways they completely manipulated us. Luckily I spent my lifetime rebelling and I didn't toe the line like my siblings, but I'm still emotionally broken because of it. I have zero respect for them. I am raising my kids very different and they actually respect us, and I don't think I ever said the word or told them what will bring shame to us. My kids are treated as human beings and we have a normal healthy relationship. Everything that is being described here is just not respect. This is so triggering and so very sad.

And I hate the color red, it hurts my eyes. ( Not for religious reasons, I just hate it ) My kids think it's funny, but also when they pick something up they often say oh mommy hates red let's get a different color. I have never told them they are forbidden from using or wearing red, I just mentioned that I really don't like when they asked why I skipped over it all the time. They are welcome to love red and I will be fine with them showing up at my house wearing red. I don't think that's respect.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:43 pm

If you have a loving relationship with your kids, and you are a true role model (not a hyprocite, who says do what I say, but not what I do) & you bring in the Ahava towards Hashem, Torah, mitzvos, shabbos & yom tov then hopefully, your children will want to emulate you & follow in your path. Still we need tons of siyatta dishmaya, daven & daven then everything should go right, along the way, and nothing should get in the way to mess them up.

sneakermom

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:46 pm

nchr wrote:

I just don't love the idea of teaching kids to jump around, but the kids really enjoy it and since it is so small it needs to be in control and well behaved to work.

I didn’t read through this whole thread. All I will say is that there’s a “wild” part of yourself that was exiled as a child. It has no permission to exist. While wildness could sometimes be chaotic or destructive it also possesses a certain freedom, expansiveness, joy, creativity that gets lost when that part is banished.

I would guess that “wild” behavior was either strongly punished or looked down on as a child.

What happens is that life becomes all about avoiding “wild” and keeping structure in order to feel good or safe.

And then it becomes in the name of religion too.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 3:56 pm

Chumros are supposed to be extra bonuses that one takes upon themselves because they want to do more, then it has value.
To force the strictest chumros onto kids & teach them that this is halacha torah msinai, just backfires because once this kid breached a strong chumrah, and get treated as being the biggest shaygatz for it, then will think If I am anyway not good enough or anymore, I might as well go all the way otd & just throw everything off.

Zehava

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:00 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Thankfully!
We are the black sheep and we are the ones that got away.
Forever proud and so grateful to be the black sheep and the one who is free to be myself.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:10 pm

Zehava wrote:

Thankfully!
We are the black sheep and we are the ones that got away.
Forever proud and so grateful to be the black sheep and the one who is free to be myself.

That’s tough too! I’m not a white sheep nor a black one. I’m a goat. My siblings are monkeys, cows, horses, parrots, sea lions... Together we make a happy jungle, er- family where everyone is accepted and no one is judged.
Life would be so boring with a bunch of clones.

Last edited by ExtraCredit on Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total